making hybrid work

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[00:00:00.840] - Clare Josa
So hello, everybody, thank you so much for joining us today, and today's topic is one that's really close to my heart. I am a massive introvert. Yeah, I love being on stage and being around people, but I am a huge introvert and Joanna Rawbone is with us today. She is a champion of the cause to remove extroversion bias from the workplace. And she's seen firsthand how it can undermine engagement, productivity and performance as well as impacting mental health.

[00:00:29.340] - Clare Josa
So what we're going to cover in this interview today is what is being an introvert, some of the myths around it, why understanding it is so vital for hybrid working and how to include introverts naturally to enable us to play to our strengths. The Soul Led Leaders podcast is for corporate leaders who are making waves and changing the rules with their hearts, not just their heads, but they know that their secret 3:00 a.m. Self-talk is getting in the way where other stress about the status quo.

[00:00:57.270] - Clare Josa
You're the action taker who drives the changes and making a difference and being a crusader is hardwired into your DNA to Soul Led Leaders podcast is here to help. Led by Clare Josa law change eight times, also an international speaker. Each episode is designed to help you to clear out the secret glass ceilings you never realised you put in your own way so that you can step up showing up with all of who you really are and reclaim your power to make the difference.

[00:01:23.640] - Clare Josa
You know, you are really here to make in the world with clarity, confidence and passion. So, Joanna, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today. You're welcome. It's a real pleasure to be here, Claire, so thanks for the invite.

[00:01:37.800] - Clare Josa
You're welcome. Joanna, just before we start to set the scene, could you give us a quick tour of how you ended up specialising in supporting introverts and removing extroversion bias from organisations?

[00:01:50.040] - Speaker 3
I can indeed. And it is an interesting story. I think I've been working as well. Originally, it was so long ago, I started working as a trainer before we became posh and it became learning and development. So I started working as a trainer when I was still at BT in 1987. So I've been doing this longer than some of our audience will have been on this planet. And I say that because I love what I do. And I you know, I absolutely loved that particular role.

[00:02:19.950] - Speaker 3
I left but in 94 and set up in business on my own and had a whole range of international clients. I worked as an associate of some training organisations, and what I realised is how big the personalities were of some of the trainers I was working alongside. And they seemed to be more entertainers than trainers. So part of my brain, having always known that I was quiet, I was different, a part of my brain thought, right. Well, I better turn it up then, if I want to be perceived in the same way as they are.

[00:02:52.140] - Speaker 3
It was in my thirties that I did the Myers Briggs type indicator, found out I was an introvert and read. I know some people really critical of Miss Briggs, but I read that little paragraph or two of description and it was like, how can somebody see into my soul as much as that particular description did? But what it didn't do was help me understand how to manage that introversion. So what it gave me a clue was to do was to how to be more extroverted.

[00:03:20.440] - Speaker 3
So I spent another couple of decades ramping up the extroversion because that's the bias, you know, the society that we exist in. And then I finally got mad enough. You know, when old ladies get to that age where it's like, okay, I can say what I feel, what I really feel now. And it was just before I got to my fifty ninth birthday, I finally I had enough I got mad enough working around the world and constantly seeing introverts being overlooked, being criticised, being given feedback that they needed to or frankly be more extrovert, push yourself forward, speak up more, do this, do that.

[00:04:01.440] - Speaker 3
And so many of them have such brilliant contribution to make and organisations are missing it. So when I got mad enough, I thought, right, it's time for flourishing introverts, because if not me, who if not now, when so flourishing introverts was born.

[00:04:18.670] - Clare Josa
That's a wonderful story, Joanna. And I remember back in my corporate days, the first time I did my first break, I actually came out as an extrovert, which really surprised me. But it was because it was measuring behaviours. Yeah. And I had had to change who I was and how I was showing up to be able to thrive in a very heavily extrovert environment. So, yeah, there were a lot of us out there. But in case people just starting at the beginning, in case people are kind of like falling for that old thing about introverts are shy and not confident, how do you define introversion versus extroversion?

[00:04:51.480] - Speaker 3
I go back to the original Jungian definition. I'm a big Jungian as opposed to a Freudian. So I go back to the Jungian definition. And it was young originally I. Identified that it's what charges and drains the batteries that differentiates between introvert and extrovert, so introverts are charged by being alone solo activities or if they're with other people. As you know, my husband and I frequently are in companionable silence. So we don't need busyness. We don't need a lot of hustle bustle around us, whereas extroverts are charged by social interaction, active experiences and change.

[00:05:31.080] - Speaker 3
So the very thing that charges the introvert drain's charges the extrovert drains the introvert. And that's where some of the tension in organisation arises because the extroverts cannot understand why we don't join in with the chatter, why we don't, you know, get fired up by being in in kind of quite sparkie environments. And a lot of that is is really because what we're trying to do is to hang on to what little mental battery we have in order to do our best work, because most of us that's why we're employed to do great work.

[00:06:06.540] - Speaker 3
And yet the very environment we exist in. So the you know, people wrongly assume that introverts lack ambition because we don't always say me, me, me, push ourselves forward. People wrongly assume that introverts are lonely because we like time alone. There is a huge difference between being alone and being lonely, that we're boring, that we're dull. I was called Darla's. Earlier on in my career, and that really kind of really landed and really hurt, actually, because I realised that because I wasn't an entertainer, I wasn't funny that I was that I was dull and boring and, you know, so the myths and misconceptions go on.

[00:06:46.580] - Speaker 3
If you Google introvert, you'll get a whole raft of really negative things, you know, in terms of including egoist, in terms of loner, shy, depressed, social anxiety, all those sorts of things. And you Google extrovert and it's lively, witty, you know. So who would ever put the hand up and claim to be an introvert when that's the perception that there is around us? Fortunately, that's changing, but it's taken too long to change.

[00:07:14.510] - Clare Josa
So we've got a great comment here in the chat already. Joanna, is, I must say, that such a session is this is needed in every workplace is such a bias against introversion. Thank you for hosting us today. So, yeah, I remember my last corporate role. By that point, I realised I was really strong on the introversion. Yeah, I used to have to get in at 7:00 in the morning and stay till seven at night just so I could have some quiet time in the open plan office to get my work done.

[00:07:39.320] - Clare Josa
And then by that point, all of the extroverts would actually go out to the pub. And I decided I was little miss antisocial because I was like, but I've used my batteries today, you know, at the end of a conference, the extroverts, all they're saying, right, which bar, which club, which pub. And I'm hiding under the table thinking, how soon can I get back to my hotel room? But it doesn't mean I don't love the people and it really impacts our ability to network and be visible and be seen.

[00:08:04.290] - Speaker 3
Absolutely. And I remember exactly the same thing. We were we were delivering a large scale training to an investment bank for their 120 grads. And I was working with some extroverted colleagues. And, you know, one of the most extroverted at the end of the day would say, right, me, my group are going to the pub. And I said, good, I'm going back to my hotel room. So exactly the same, exactly this.

[00:08:28.160] - Clare Josa
But we do get very judged for it. So when we're looking at hybrid, yes, this hybrid means the different personality types. And what will their preferences be likely to be?

[00:08:39.290] - Speaker 3
I think we need to really distil down what hybrid truly means because so many organisations are claiming to offer Hybrid working when actually what they're not doing is offering that they're offering flexible working. True hybrid working is where people choose, where they get their work done and and often when they get their work done to so many introverts will have found that during lockdown they were more productive if they lived in an introvert friendly household and if they had somewhere that wasn't sitting on their bed working so often, they found they were more productive.

[00:09:17.180] - Speaker 3
And so with with true hybrid working, if I could choose where I get my work done, then what I'm probably going to choose is majority of my time at home or out of an open plan office. I may choose a coffee shop if it's quite a quiet one. If I know I can get good wi fi and get stuff done, it doesn't mean I have to be locked away at home. But I'm probably, as an introvert, not going to choose to rush back into the office if it's an open plan office and everyone is going to be hail fellow well met and all that sort of stuff, whereas many extroverts are craving that because in lockdown really hasn't suited them is it's like imagining an extrovert working in a library, you know, that's going to drive them crackers, whereas it's quite a good job for many introverts.

[00:10:05.060] - Speaker 3
So extroverts are going to be the first to want to go back into the office. And ironically, what I found is the first to judge people who don't want to go back. So people who say, you know what, actually I'm fine working from home, you can see by my stats I'm really productive. But they're judged as being not team players or, you know, not really committed to the organisation or not really ambitious. So we really need to take care of the judgements that are being made.

[00:10:33.050] - Speaker 3
So that's likely to be how people will choose to work in a real hybrid situation.

[00:10:40.490] - Clare Josa
It's so important that judging is something I'm seeing a lot at the moment in organisations, and unless you've got an excuse to work from home, which your personality type is not deemed sufficient, then you will be judged and potentially excluded. But you and I know something else is really important to you is about the tale of two lockdowns and lockdown has been different for these two personality types yet.

[00:11:04.750] - Speaker 3
So one of the things that we, you know, we really think about with the tale of two lockdowns is is really starting to think about if I'm if I'm working in a home environment that's introvert friendly, where I'm surrounded by by radiator's people who give me energy so that one of the myths and misconceptions is that introverts don't like people. That's not introversion. So we need to be really kind of clear that introverts love people. But what we love is people who get us, people who understand us, people who give us space.

[00:11:40.960] - Speaker 3
So, you know, if I've been working in that introvert friendly space with people who give me energy, who give me space, then it's been an absolute joy. But, you know, many of us, if we've been trying to manage childcare and a husband working or a partner working from home at the same time, it has been far from easy. So it's wrong to say that all introverts have thrived during lockdown. Really not true. It depends on the environment.

[00:12:10.870] - Speaker 3
And and that's one of the important things that I'd love organisations to think about, is that environment and Alexander done higher than higher has a wonderful phrase that he says it's something along I may misquote. So forgive me, but something along the lines of, you know, if a flower fails to to bloom, we don't blame the flower. We check the environment or the conditions it's growing in. And that's the approach that we really need to bring to our talent and people.

[00:12:39.790] - Speaker 3
Management is if somebody is not thriving, you know, it's not necessarily that they're at fault. They're wrong. Let's check the environment that we're expecting them to flourish in.

[00:12:51.550] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. Such an important point. Now, very quick question before we move on to the next topic is can we change over time? Can we swap our preference? Is it black and white? Is it a sliding scale? How does that work, Joanna?

[00:13:04.330] - Speaker 3
So one of the things that I've I've got is an introvert quiz that helps people identify what type of introvert they are because it's not as simple as being where introvert or where extrovert for some of us is. For some of us, that preference is so clear, but it is a preference. And what we need to be really clear about is that behaviour sits on top of that preference. So I will always, always, always have a need to recharge quietly on my own.

[00:13:33.910] - Speaker 3
I'm very aware of when my mental battery is starting to drain. I check it almost like I do my phone battery because I can feel when when I'm starting to check out mentally, if not physically. And those who love me and know me will even comment and say hello, just checking out. And what they do is just give me space in that moment. So, so introvert and extrovert will tend to have that need either for any busy environment, which is the extrovert or a quieter environment which is the introvert.

[00:14:09.070] - Speaker 3
In order to recharge my Brigg's actually says that the older we get, the less attached we get to our preferences. But we're always going to have that either need to recharge on our own or even need to recharge with other people and with that busy environment. And then what we can be is is more flexible. So when I'm working with my breaks because I'm a certified practitioner in organisations, one of the things we do with leaders is help them understand how to how to flex elegantly between the styles when we're problem-solving, how to take account of the different styles.

[00:14:46.600] - Speaker 3
So do we change? Not really. We get less attached. But what we do, I find is that we get more and more self aware and we understand ourselves better. So in my case, where I pretended to be extroverted for so long and bit like you were saying earlier, I then get to the point of saying enough pretends I'm not pretending anymore. I'm going to be me. I'm going to own my strengths, I'm going to play to them and I'm going to talk about introversion and all the positive qualities rather than pretending.

[00:15:20.110] - Speaker 3
So I don't know that we actually change. What I think we do is we we are less attached. We can flex easier and we know ourselves better.

[00:15:29.410] - Clare Josa
That's a great answer. And I know, for example, one of the things I have to do is you're saying you check your energy levels. I choose to spend mine like money. Yeah. So on Sunday, for example. All week we had a fantastic day. I had three really big events, we had to travel a couple of hours to get the three things we were doing, meeting up with lots of different people. I knew it was going to take a lot of people energy.

[00:15:51.200] - Clare Josa
So for a couple of days beforehand, I cancelled all people time apart from my family. And on Monday I made sure I had no client meetings because I had to build up my people bucket and use it on Sunday. And I knew that on Monday I would need to refill it through quiet time, working at home on my own in my office. I do the same for keynotes. When people say Okeanos, you just show up for 9:00. Well, you actually start prepping for it energy wise a couple of days before to build up enough energy.

[00:16:20.900] - Clare Josa
And I go straight from that keynote into more meetings. I will have two days in bed with a migraine.

[00:16:25.920] - Speaker 3
Absolutely. And there is a very well recognised path from introvert overwhelm through into introvert hangover, through into introvert burnout. And unless we do exactly as you've done and and pre charge and then recharge, then we're going to fall foul of that and we're going to be no good for anything. So it's such a good strategy.

[00:16:47.860] - Clare Josa
Falling foul of it and being no good for anything, many times it relevant, but you can imagine everybody listening and watching to this, I believe, on the replay. You can imagine as a leader, as a line manager, as a colleague, if we've got introverts and we're pushing them into lots and lots of people time without accepting and helping them to plan in their ability to recharge the batteries, that it's going to cause major problems. Back in the days where we were hopping onto planes, trains and cars every day to go to different places, then that was incredibly draining for introverts.

[00:17:20.190] - Clare Josa
And when we push on through, as you say, Joanna, it triggers burnout, which is one of my real pet topics. Yes. Well, when we're looking at making the working environment more introvert friendly because it's a large proportion of people, isn't it? Something like around 40 percent of employees?

[00:17:37.330] - Speaker 3
Well, the data that I've got says that about 47 percent of UK individuals identify as an introvert, 53 percent of us. And yet we think of the US as being much more extroverted society. But that means there's even more people pretending to be extroverted in order to fit in. So incredible. It is a huge you know, this this is such a significant number. We can't afford to overlook it now.

[00:18:08.140] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And when I look at my Soul Led Leaders at work, I talk about courageous alignment, which is where we're totally lined up with who we really are and comfortable in our own skin so we can show up as all of who we are as a leader. If we're having to pretend to be extrovert, something that we're not, then the unconscious message that's giving us is clear, not good enough. And you can imagine how that will trigger things like my other pet subject, Imposter Syndrome.

[00:18:31.850] - Clare Josa
Yes.

[00:18:32.690] - Speaker 3
And and that's a lot of the work I do with the introverts because they've had years or decades of being told to be different. So the overwhelming message and because it happens, it starts so early in childhood, often by the time people are getting into their senior schools and on into employment, they're already at that point of thinking they're not enough. So they're Inner Critic is usually overactive, that Imposter Syndrome can then get triggered by that. And, you know, it's a real problem.

[00:19:00.670] - Speaker 3
And I'm working with people in their forties and fifties Hirani just realising that there's nothing wrong with them. They're just an introvert. And we've got decades then of of them not being good enough to kind of unpick and rework. So it's a real problem for people.

[00:19:18.480] - Clare Josa
It's a really big issue. Yeah, because we judge ourselves, we assume that we're the one that's broke and needs fixing somehow because we're not conforming to the stereotype anachronistic.

[00:19:28.410] - Speaker 3
And that's why I'm so committed to I know this is a huge undertaking, but it's why I'm so committed to shifting the extroversion bias. It's why I did my TED talk is why I'm doing the work I'm doing, rattling the cages of organisations saying, you know, if you think you've got a good DGI policy, think again. Because unless you're taking into account this aspect of neurodiversity, you're kidding yourselves.

[00:19:52.080] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And we're putting so much effort in for minorities that are actually much, much smaller than this and completely ignoring that nearly 50 percent who will really struggle with open plan offices and hot desking and all of that kind of thing, which which segues us on to what can we do with genuine hybrid working when we know that people aren't going to have their old working environment? What can we do to make that introvert friendly? Particularly is the evidence that you and I are seeing that we've discussed before, is that a lot of the return to work committees are being led by the extroverts who are desperate to get back in the office.

[00:20:27.330] - Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a couple of things that are quite quick wins. One is to banish forever back to back meetings because talking about recharge, you know, when we're expected to either on Zoome or when we're back in the office, when we're expected to attend back to back meetings, introverts don't get that downtime. Now, my big worry actually is not just for the introverts, but it's for the whole business community. When do we get the work done that was generated by that meeting when we have a culture of back to back meetings?

[00:21:02.280] - Speaker 3
And I can tell you when people get it done at 7:00 in the evening or 9:00 in the evening or 7:00 the next morning, because they look at their next day on their calendar and it's Chocho or I've seen this quite often, they don't they're not fully present in the meeting because they're busy doing the work that came out of the meeting before, and all of which is a complete waste of people's time. So I think banishing back to back meetings would absolutely be one of the things that I would say straight away and also making sure that in the horrendous kind of situation is open plan offices, that there are quiet spaces for people to work.

[00:21:42.090] - Speaker 3
You know, my niece is a teacher, and when she came to my TED talk, one of the things she implemented after that is that she now has a quiet table in her classroom, not as a punishment, but for children who choose to go and sit on the quiet table so that they can focus and do their work quietly. They're choosing that environment. We need the same in our office spaces. And I was talking to a colleague recently who said she met the person, the man who invented open plan offices.

[00:22:12.960] - Speaker 3
She said, and I was considering kneecapping him.

[00:22:15.690] - Clare Josa
And I would I I don't think I'm normally very restrained. I don't think I'd be polite.

[00:22:23.250] - Speaker 3
No, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I understand it and I understand it from an economic perspective. And actually having those little offices wasn't much good either because, you know, a little office with three introverts and an extrovert was just a living hell as well. So, you know, I understand, but let's be tolerant of it. If introverts ask to wear headphones, for instance, don't automatically assume that it's because they're unsociable and they're disconnected and they're disengaged.

[00:22:55.530] - Speaker 3
Far from it. Potentially what they're doing is they're focussing to get into flow to do their best work. So let's really enquire and ask, what is it? What kind of situation, what environment brings out the best in you? And let's do that as a team. Let's do that as an organisation. Let's have those conversations rather than assuming that everyone is just waiting to leap back. And, you know, I've got really frustrated with people saying I can't wait for things to get back to normal people.

[00:23:27.450] - Speaker 3
There is no going back. What we're doing is creating a new normal. And let's do that intelligently and with diversity and equitable inclusion at the heart of it.

[00:23:39.120] - Clare Josa
This is so important. I mean, I remember back in my last corporate role, sometimes the only way I could get work done during the day was to go and hide in a meeting room with earphones and playing some of that, like binaural music in the background noise, cancelling earphones because there was nowhere quiet. And the work I was doing required me to process huge amounts of data and draw conclusions and make strategic recommendations. And I couldn't do it in a noisy environment.

[00:24:06.210] - Clare Josa
For me, one of the big triggers was telephones and with the telephone going off almost constantly and that 200 person environment and the phones ringing a lot less now. But we've got everybody on meetings where you can only hear half the conversation. We've got teams, teams, Peng's, you know, all of the apps pinging constantly. It's going to be really hard for an introvert to find that quiet space. And it's something that businesses really need to build into their strategy, isn't it, Joanna?

[00:24:34.020] - Speaker 3
And I think the other thing is because you're absolutely right, I have a client who has seven different ways that information can get to her in the workplace. So before she starts a piece of work, she has to check all seven to see if something has come in that is going to change the way she's going to approach something. And, you know, that is just bonkers. So I think organisations also need to rationalise how we are contactable so that we're not overwhelmed with this stuff.

[00:25:02.730] - Speaker 3
And, you know, one of the things that and I guess it might have been designed by an extrovert as well, is the kind of the Jabba the yaama, those kind of instant messaging things, because, of course, we must be instantly contactable. And how to how do we expect people to do their best work when we ping them a message, interrupt them from what they're doing, expect them to respond immediately. Let's go back and understand how people work so that what we can do is design workplaces where people are productive and get their best work done.

[00:25:39.630] - Clare Josa
This is so vitally important because even an extrovert will be distracted by that. Yeah, yeah. Then you go and they will be distracted. But the chances are it will feed their battery because it's something interesting, something exciting. Somebody needs me something. What somebody wants something. It will interrupt their flow. But the next piece of research that I want to do is whether it's easier for introverts to get into flow because we have this kind of approach that we have.

[00:26:10.950] - Clare Josa
I suspect the extroverts typically will find it an alien concept or much more difficult, certainly, because they are you know, they're almost the butterfly who kind of all the next thing. The so that email pop up that comes at the bottom of your screen is very seductive because it's like, oh, somebody wants me, somebody wants something. Whereas an introvert will find it much easier to turn that alarm, that alert off or that notification off so that they can focus.

[00:26:41.640] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And yet so many cultures at the moment, particularly over lockdown, because we've got this drive to prove that we're still delivering what we're meant to be delivering have created an environment where, as you say with your client, you have to check all seven sources of contact before you can start work on a project. And that simply isn't good for productivity. Indeed, brilliant. So one of the other things that's really important about you. Okay.

[00:27:08.030] - Speaker 3
That have got automatic lights and if I don't move enough, they go off and I stick.

[00:27:15.660] - Clare Josa
So one of the things that's also really important as we look at what Hybrid working will mean is a lot of teams want to rebuild and a lot of the extroverts in the teams are like, let's go out for dinner, let's go out for drinks, doing all of this extra socialising. And we're not antisocial as introverts. But what can businesses do both as they reintegrate with the team building and then also to make sure that introverts are not missing out because they're not in line of sight?

[00:27:41.250] - Clare Josa
Visibility in the office as much as the extroverts.

[00:27:44.200] - Speaker 3
Yeah, this is a piece of work I've done with a client of mine recently because the the whole thing about Hybrid working and let's imagine an organisation is using hybrid effectively in terms of people choose where they get their work done. Chances are it's going to be the extroverts who are in the office more often. And because they're then front of mind, they're likely to be offered more of those exciting opportunities. So I think it's about managers having to do a little bit more thought around.

[00:28:14.640] - Speaker 3
Okay, what opportunities are coming up? Who might be the right person to do this, either because it's their skill set or they need to get involved in something like that rather than just considering who happens to be in front of them in the moment. So I think it's important that managers, you know, I hate to say it, but probably almost have a spreadsheet actually, of what opportunities are coming in. Who's being offered. So that, you know, everyone is getting an equal share of some of the exciting work and when it comes to team building, you know, there are many introverts who really the thought of high ropes kind of team building and, you know, bursting balloons and doing whatever really doesn't work for them.

[00:29:00.100] - Speaker 3
And it comes back to because we as introverts, our communication process tends to be think they think. So when somebody asks a question, we genuinely want to think about the answer to give our honest response. So a lot of those those types of activities don't really require a thought through through response. It's fun because people don't realise the fun is very subjective. So I think it's about leaders and managers identifying what kind of activities would genuinely rebuild this team so that it's not just about we've had a great night out or we've been tenpin bowling.

[00:29:40.690] - Speaker 3
And I don't know how that builds teamwork. I really don't I don't mind tenpin bowling, but I don't see how it adds to teamwork. So I think it's about looking at this in terms of what worked for us as as a function or as a team during lockdown. And what do we want to bring with us? Let's bring the best of lockdown with us so that we have intelligent conversations with us and we get to understand what makes each other tick because I'm all about inclusive city rather than further divisions.

[00:30:13.330] - Speaker 3
And that means that we need to understand each other better and we need to understand and be tolerant of differences and appreciate it and value it and start to see how it complements what each of us does. So it's not introverts against extroverts. And unfortunately, I'm a member of a few introvert communities where all they do is complain about extroverts. That's not the point either. We need to understand that they need that social interaction in order to recharge as much as we don't need it.

[00:30:44.140] - Speaker 3
So let's make the team building really understand and perhaps even use something like the Patrick Lencioni triangle in terms of if it starts with trust and trust is is the basic of a functional team. What does trust look like to each of us? What do we need to do in order to trust each other? And let's surface some of those previously undiscussable about when Joe's not in the office. It's because she's not committed. No, when Joe's not in the office, it's because she's doing great work elsewhere.

[00:31:17.080] - Speaker 3
So let's have intelligent team building, not subjective fun team building. That, frankly, is just an excuse for a bit of a party.

[00:31:26.350] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And one of the great comments you've got here is we have exactly this problem in our office. So many sport related social events. It doesn't suit a lot of people. I still remember in my very first job after university being forced to join the baseball team because you had to have at least one woman on the team every week to be allowed to play. And I was an engineer. There weren't many of it. I hated it. It was humiliating and mortifying.

[00:31:49.000] - Clare Josa
But I was told if I didn't do it, I would never get promoted because I wouldn't be seen as a team player. And I think one of the other things that comes up, because so many of our leaders have had to pretend to be extroverts to get to where they are, there then becomes this thing where they actually judge the introverts for not playing that same game. Yeah, what we actually need is a huge amount of healing on. I'm really sorry that you've had to pretend to be somebody that you're not for so long in order to succeed.

[00:32:16.870] - Clare Josa
Now it's time to support everybody. As you say, this is a neurodiversity issue. This is something that needs to be at the core of DNA strategy. This isn't a bunch of people asking for special treatment because we've suddenly decided with special snowflakes, this is us saying we cannot thrive in an extrovert environment long term. We've just had fifteen months experiencing the opposite in many, many situations. We now need to bring all of us into the workplace rather than pretending to be somebody that we're not spot on.

[00:32:47.350] - Speaker 3
And you know, that message is so important. I'm not after special treatment. I'm after a level playing field. You know, if if we're creating environment in which only fifty one percent of our employees thrive, then that's discrimination. So let's have a level playing field where we can all thrive.

[00:33:06.020] - Clare Josa
That's brilliant. Brilliant. Joanna, so to wrap up, I know that you've got some battery boosters for introverts. Could you share those with us and tell people how they can get their hands on them?

[00:33:16.240] - Speaker 3
Yes. So I developed these talking about that journey from overwhelm into hangover, into burnout. And I've only hit burnout once. And it was a three month long thing that I really don't want to repeat. What I realised is I needed some quick strategies and techniques that I could use that kept me going when I just had to keep going for the rest of the day, you know, like we have. Those little battery charges that give our phone an extra hours of juice is kind of like that.

[00:33:43.980] - Speaker 3
So I have a number of different techniques that I've developed that work for me, and they're available as a download for people either to try them and then create their own. But they're very simple things like using acupressure points, you know, the third eye or this point here, which brings us back to being able to focus again using essential oils. Lemon in particular is really great for focus. So if there is stuff going on around me and I need to get back and focus something like lemon oil can be really useful for that.

[00:34:14.130] - Speaker 3
I have crystals and I usually have one tucked down my top. Actually, if I'm going to somewhere and I need a bit of protection, movement is really important. You know, if I'm if I am in a place where there's lots going on and I need to think I will do a walking meditation or I will do a walking thinking practise, and if I need to recharge the battery just a quick up and down stairs a few times or so, I'll make the excuse that I'm taking myself to the bathroom.

[00:34:41.940] - Speaker 3
But I'll go a little I'll go the long way round in order just to get me moving a bit. And if I'm working at home or on my own in the office, a dance break will work really well to so simple little techniques that. Exactly. That just give us that extra boost we need. And they're available at flourishing, flourishing essentials me and is just a simple download and use it as a starter for ten. But find out, find the things that work for you.

[00:35:11.430] - Speaker 3
So for me, they're brilliant little techniques.

[00:35:15.000] - Clare Josa
Fantastic. Thank you, Joanna. And what is the best way for people to connect with you? Obviously, your Joanna Rawbone on LinkedIn. What what's your website? How do you like people to get in touch if you go to flourishing, flourishing introverts dot com? My website has my podcast, has my TED talk, has a few musings and has kind of what it is that I'm about. So that's probably on the quiz to find out what type of introvert you are.

[00:35:42.510] - Clare Josa
So everything is in. That's kind of one stop shop.

[00:35:45.540] - Clare Josa
Thank you so much, Joe. And I have to say, for those of you who've been in the chat on the live round of this site, I need my workplace to read this or to see this or hear this. Please feel free to share the replay of this session. And also, I have to say, Joanna's TED talk is a very well spent. Twenty minutes. I watched it before I first connected with everyone. There is nobody else I want to talk to on this topic really well.

[00:36:07.620] - Speaker 3
And there's a couple of good articles that I'm very happy for people to have. One was in Diversity and inclusion leader last week or the week before and one was in H.R. Director. So if you want something with a bit of clout to send to the right people, those are the kind of articles you'll need to send them.

[00:36:26.140] - Clare Josa
Thank you so much, Joanne. I'm going to wrap this session up today. It's been wonderful that you've shared your time, your wisdom, your inspiration. Thank you for those who've been live with us for your questions and your feedback and everybody go and take some action. Yeah. What is the one thing that you could do in your workplace to support introverts, to flourish and thrive as we move back from whatever we've been doing into Hybrid working, whatever new normal we can create and go and take that action in the next 24 hours.

[00:36:55.930] - Speaker 3
Perfect. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking with you, Claire.

[00:36:59.180] - Joanna Rawbone
Thank you, Joanna. Schoen notes Deepti Resources and access to Claire's inspirational weekly Soul Led Leaders email is available for you at Clare Josa dot com forward slash Soul Led Leaders.

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Burnout: 5 Hidden Ways That Imposter Syndrome Triggers It & What We Need To Be Doing About It – Now

HR Directors are telling me that burnout is one of their biggest concerns for the rest of 2021. Companies are trying everything from wellbeing days to free mindfulness app subscriptions to beanbags in meeting rooms, but they're not seeing results.

In this episode, you'll discover why. And what we need to be doing, instead.

Today's Soul Led Leaders episode is taken from a masterclass I ran in June 2021 and in it you will learn:

5 hidden ways that Imposter Syndrome leads to burnout - and how to spot the early warning signs
Why the 'bridge of coping strategies' approach falls apart in times of change - and what you need to be doing instead
Clare's favourite 'Emergency Quick Fix' strategy to help you to reset your stress response in under sixty seconds
Why 'resilience' is such a dirty word - one that makes your teams want to throw rotten tomatoes at you
How Clare's 5-step Natural Resilience Method™ can slash stress levels, boost confidence, and prevent burnout, in ways that are fast, fun and forever

Although you're listening to the replay, I invite you to listen to this session as though we were live together, to get the most from it. So please do join in, scribble notes, and then let me know here what your 'next 24 hours action' is - all will become clear!

Listen Now:

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Other Resources I Mention In This Talk

Read: Ditching Imposter Syndrome

With thousands of readers in over 30 countries in just its first year, discover for yourself why people describe Ditching Imposter Syndrome as 'life-changing' and even 'unputdownable'. It guides you, step by step, through how to turn your inner critic into your biggest cheerleader - and set yourself free from Imposter Syndrome, once and for all.

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2019 Imposter Syndrome Research Study White Paper

Read the white paper with the key results from this landmark research study - the first of its kind in the UK. It includes essential information on how Imposter Syndrome is one of three hidden drivers in the gender pay gap, and what we can do about it, as companies and as individuals.

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Stepping Up To Lead™

This ground-breaking leadership development programme helps rising stars to do the 'inside work' to help them to lead with courage, confidence and passion. It is proven to help them to ditch Imposter Syndrome and start turning their inner critic into a genuine cheerleader, in under 90 days, creating breakthroughs in minutes, not months.

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And for those of you who were interested in how to help children with the kinds of things we talked about in this masterclass, here's instant access to a training I ran for parents and teachers, which Salisbury Cathedral School super-kindly agreed to make available, free of charge: How To Help Children Turn Their Inner Critic Into Their Biggest Cheerleader.

What Inclusion Really Means With Hybrid Working – Interview With Annique Simpson

A senior consultant specialising in internal communications and managing change, Annique Simpson is passionate about creating true inclusion by helping make sure we "listen with the intention of taking action". In this inspirational interview, she shares the practicalities of how to do this, as a leader or line manager, how to avoid the common pitfalls, and how to make sure people don't feel they have to vote with their feet, to make their voice heard. We're talking about:

What Inclusion Really Means With Hybrid Working

What you'll cover in this episode
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What We Cover In This Interview:

Who is really controlling the hybrid employee experience
The vital importance of employee voice - and how to hear it
How leadership's priority needs to be engaging with employees to design in work-life balance
How to connect with people who aren't in the building
How to predict and avoid the unintended consequences of decisions

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Watch The Interview:

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[00:00:06.330] - Clare Josa
Hello, everybody, I'm so thrilled today to be joined by Annique Simpsons for this latest interview in the Lockdown Leadership Conference about #makinghybridwork, and she is a senior consultant specialising in Internal Communications and change communications. And so what we're going to be talking about today is all about how to handle communicating, how hybrid working your organisation. We're going to look at what inclusion really means, going beyond the stereotypes, to look at how to transform that employee voice, really hearing it and turning that into action, how to build communications, whether you're an icy professional, whether your line manager, whether you're a colleague, that mean that you're communicating equally as effectively with people who are in the office and people who are not, and also how to how to predict and avoid the unintended consequences of decisions around hybrid working so that everybody feels included.

[00:01:02.020] - Clare Josa
And we're not creating this two tiered society that we've been talking about in previous interviews. And I am thrilled to have you join us today.

[00:01:10.230] - Annique Simpson
I am so glad to be back for having me along with looking forward to our conversation on Thursday.

[00:01:15.120] - Clare Josa
Thank you. Now, I'd like to start with just how did you get into doing what you do? I know we've talked before and you have a very strong passion for this. Could you give us a potted history?

[00:01:25.470] - Annique Simpson
Yeah, of course. So I've been doing Internal Communications for about five, four, five years now. And I was a conscious effort to go into Internal Comms specifically because I had about three interests that kind of converge into the career that I have now. So and my background is psychology and psychological. And what I went into the workforce after you and you have a passionate about employee voice, I guess, as I know now, but just creating and creating and being part of groups that help employees to have great connexion and communication with them, with management.

[00:02:08.010] - Annique Simpson
So I was doing that socialising in unison and using rep, and I did a bit of a staff, consultative forums. And then also my passion has been writing. So I first started when I was 10 and that's always kind of followed me throughout my academic and academic sort of experience. And so really Internal Comms when I moved into it, was an opportunity to bring those three together. So my love for understanding employees influence on people and their motivations with a passion for writing or a skill set for four comms professionals with internal work study and my desire, I guess, to help to bridge the gap between employees and and management.

[00:02:54.090] - Annique Simpson
So that's how I that's how I gravitated towards Internal Comms and found management a role and switched careers from my previous career working in the health care and health, health and care service. It's a health care service. So that's how I that's where I was before and that's how I kind of moved in, guided by those three passions.

[00:03:14.730] - Clare Josa
What's amazing, so writing your first article at the age of 10, the communication was always going to be in your blood was not unique.

[00:03:21.600] - Annique Simpson
I think. I think yes, I do. I think I remember I wrote a letter and said, you know, this is what I want to be a writer. And I actually do as well as Combes. I'm also a music journalist. So I do have that kind of journalistic part of me as soon as I get through extracurricular activities. But Combs has allowed me to do that. And the more senior that I've got, the most I've got in the higher ranks, I do less of the writing now, but it's always helpful.

[00:03:50.940] - Annique Simpson
And when you back's against the wall and you've got to get a quick message out to have that whole school set for you, that's brilliant.

[00:03:57.540] - Clare Josa
I was I can imagine with a journalistic mindset running your you must have a skill for being able to spot a story, but then communicate it without the emotions.

[00:04:06.510] - Annique Simpson
Yes. So I mean, I'd like to think so. And I think one of the things that one of the things that I think a journalistic experience has given me and and there's many, you know, I should say for those who perhaps aren't as close to the problems as those who work in government, there are many people who are journalists who are in the comp space because it has a manual, of course. But for me, one of the key things that I bring in that I take from that experience into Microwins practise is really around getting to the heart of the story and understanding what is important to the audience and putting the audience first, because, you know, in the in journalism audiences is money.

[00:04:47.850] - Annique Simpson
And so there's definitely a drive to a very clear drive in those people in many publications, all of the drive to get to get to the heart of what the audience wants to hear or needs to hear. And I think that is an important part of communications.

[00:05:05.060] - Clare Josa
That's wonderful to hear. So of what we want to talk about today and how we talk to soldiers through with Hybrid working, how the employee experience is dependent on who is in control.

[00:05:17.570] - Annique Simpson
Yes. So Clare Josa the question that has kept me is keeping me up at night in terms of hybrid working, because I think a lot has been said over the past 15, 18 months around and around this new wakan in in the working world and the fact that we are now going to be in it now, employees can pick and choose where they how they work in the organisations where they are and really have the power to to get back their lives from the workforce, from their employers, and be able to make all these sorts of lovely decisions about where they work and what times they work, etc.

[00:05:56.200] - Annique Simpson
. And whilst I think, you know, the the the advent of the technology being delivered, being adopted by organisations, of course, as a result of look down has been, you know, a my way past my imagination and dreams in terms of organisation is kind of getting into the twenty first century. I think it's a bit is a bit of a fallacy. Going around is certainly an illusion of control in the sense of now that we are in a place where we are talking about post pandemic, although not necessarily pushed, and we are thinking about what the world could look like, what the working world could look like for the next two, three, five years.

[00:06:37.580] - Annique Simpson
I think some employees may still be, I guess, pumped up on this thought that they can shake their roles. And actually, we're seeing inside the conversation as the conversation is happening in the media particularly, is really giving quite a bit of indication that that's not really going to be the case. So, you know, the case for returning to the office is quite strong or being quite strongly from this. I'd hate to say you you've got the government who've been encouraging us pretty much since the first lockdown was over to get back into the office.

[00:07:10.130] - Annique Simpson
You know, that seen a few reports around businesses that rely on commuter trade, doing interviews and talking about how much they need of workers back into the city centres, back into back into back to the offices of ongoing operational costs. Some of these businesses are facing. This will drive around getting back to in-person collaboration, in-person relationship building, and then, you know, the more sinister, radical micromanagement, lack of trust. And these are all going to drive us to get people back into the office.

[00:07:43.730] - Annique Simpson
And I think what we are seeing in some organisations like Goldman Sachs came out earlier this year. One is a particular example of this almost revolt and reverse of the working from home spirit and remote working spirit, even even some going as far as Goldman Sachs. I just want to say that Hybrid working would work for less than CEO Hybrid working work, and it's working for them. Working is something that we must get rid of right away. So that's the kind of, I guess, the language in some organisations.

[00:08:18.560] - Annique Simpson
And actually, you know, the CPC IPD come out and said as part of talking about the legality, I guess, and the employee rights around working from home that actually post government restrictions, employees who go back to to the employees are within their rights to be there back to what it was before. So employees have to agree for you to work from home. So we're going on this opportunity for lots of people, you know, for many workers, not all workers, but many workers who were able to work for them, particularly office workers, to be able to do so to almost like a reverse back to previous policies or certainly from a legal perspective, it goes back to previous policies around working from home.

[00:09:00.710] - Annique Simpson
So the employees are the ones that have that final decision. And I think examples of where that is starting to happen is, you know, you've got Apple have come out and said in the CEO a couple of months ago and know out to employees and said, you know, you're going to have to return to work Monday, Tuesday, Thursday. Some employees can work remotely twice a week, and then employees can, with their manager's approval, work up to two weeks a year.

[00:09:28.670] - Annique Simpson
Working from home in Apple, a researcher who has been quite well known for having a anti remote working policy, which, you know, as one of the the big tech titans, probably sounds a bit strange and know some of the particular question permits that stuck with me in terms of the reasoning why Tim Cook and the leadership team want people to get to work. So he says, you know, for all that we've been able to achieve with many, many of us being separated, the truth is that there been something essential missing from the past year.

[00:10:02.180] - Annique Simpson
Each other is a video conference and calling. Narrowed the distance between us, but to be sure, but there are things simply cannot replicate, and as a result, employees push back with an internal email and said, you're not listening to us. The fact that, you know, there's a massive disconnect between how you use an executive team feel about the actual working experience and how we feel people have been forced to quit. And actually we feel as an employee group that we're having to choose between our family, our well-being and feeling empowered to do our best work versus being part of Apple.

[00:10:34.640] - Annique Simpson
So you've got that very strong disconnect between employees who say, you know, we want more control over how we work and where we work and a leadership team who are saying, but we have to be together, what we want to be together, that's part of our culture, very much at odds with how the employees are feeling. And then you compare that to Twitter, where they said, hey, we've made it work from home. So the control is with you.

[00:11:01.670] - Annique Simpson
So if you want to come back into the office, we welcome you open up. But if you want to work from home and your job allows you to do so, we are more than happy for you to work forever. Very different approaches. One is very specifically controlled to the more control to the employee. So with the caveat, if you could do your job from home and it's safe for you to do so versus you must come in because this is working in with each other physically is part of our culture.

[00:11:28.130] - Annique Simpson
It's why we do. We do.

[00:11:30.700] - Clare Josa
I love what you're saying there, I and one of the reasons why I decided to set the conference up for a second year in a row for the lock down leadership conference is I was seeing exactly what you're describing, which is organisations dictating we need to reconnect in person. Therefore, you will come into the office X number of days a week, but not having a Y behind it, because what people were finding is they were just going to come in, bring their laptops and do the same emails in the offices they'd be doing at home, because there's no coordination, there's no thinking, there's no strategy of what is it we actually want.

[00:12:01.810] - Clare Josa
We want to connect in person. Right. How many days a month or quarter do we actually need to do that to rebuild this team spirit? And how flexible could we be to accommodate everybody's needs outside of that rather than this dictate, as you say, the control of somebody in a committee somewhere decided X number of days a week was the right way to do it without really thinking about the humans, because one of the things we've seen over lockdown is people's values have changed.

[00:12:30.520] - Clare Josa
That's a really big event for values to change, you know, losing a loved one, becoming a parent, those kind of thing, graduating from university. These big life events change what's important to us. And we have a workforce where a lot of the values have changed. Suddenly, four hours a day on a train, sweaty staff commuting doesn't appeal anymore when they could make every school sports day and be home for dinner every night. If we want to keep our best employees and be thriving, we need to really hear the employee voice on what matters to them now, rather than trying to spring back to the old ways of working is that the pandemic has never happened.

[00:13:09.640] - Clare Josa
Yes, and I'd love to hear from you about employee voice. What is it? Because for a lot of us, we'll think, well, that's trade unions. And as a manager, rather than as a comms consultant, as a manager, how can we tap into employee voice like, well, now we want one of my favourite topics, so changes one and replaces the other side. And perfect for this conversation, but as well as just the time that we're in as a as a country as well.

[00:13:37.300] - Clare Josa
So employee voice definition, it's the act of involving listening to and inviting employees to contribute their experiences, expertise, my days, especially when it comes to decisions that need to be made that affect them and the concept of employee voice can be split into indirect and direct mechanisms. So in terms of how you can gather and facilitate employee voice, you've got indirect, which is collective bargaining with trade unions. So it's going through another party and then you've got direct, which is all of the other ways in which employees can voice their concerns.

[00:14:15.310] - Clare Josa
And so things like a pulse rate for engagement, survey sentiment analysis on intranets and enterprise, social networks, focus groups, exit interviews, a very often untapped source of information about how and a way to diagnose the culture and organisation and find out how people are feeling, how things are going. Suggestion's games, team meetings, once one, employee forums and employee resource groups. So there's a whole host of mechanisms through which people can exercise voice. And so that's what it is.

[00:14:49.840] - Clare Josa
And I guess just to to to tackle that before I get into the how is really the benefits of doing it. So why bother asking employees what they think will? You know, first, it's a key and it's been found time and time again to be a key enabler of employee engagement and also high organisational performance. And so for anyone out there who hasn't read Engage with success, report by Clocker McCleod. I recommend that you do that because it is great to great resource around how to engage employees.

[00:15:20.710] - Clare Josa
And Employee Voice has its own chapter with case studies as well as fantastic. You've got an employee wellbeing course because employees are you give them the ability to to speak and be listened to. Well, negative emotions around the working environment are likely to dissipate because they're not going to be frustrated or angry or less frustrated, less angry, frustrated, etc. but also the sense that they're not kind of trapped in a box where they can't say anything and they can't effect change or be part of the changes happening.

[00:15:53.290] - Clare Josa
And then for the organisation's perspective, no constructive, optimal decision making in your organisation. If you're bringing together all these ideas of people, this diversity of thought that a lot of people talk about, well, if you're accessing the in the the intelligence, the the experience, the just the ideas, life experience of the employees, you are going to have more ideas on the table to be able to test, to look through, to to interrogate and and to apply.

[00:16:21.580] - Clare Josa
And then employee retention of employees leave. And actually leaving is is is a type of employee voice will be is not vocal in the trees in the. The definition of the dictionary definition, but it is a formal Boyzvoice and it's probably the most extreme version and the one that causes the biggest challenges for organisations. So that's kind of the case of making for employee voice. As for, I guess, how can a line managers, managers, leaders out there really have?

[00:16:51.170] - Clare Josa
So I think the the main thing really around employee voice is this intention to listen. The true intention to listen, I think sometimes and to listen, to hear and to apply. So one of the worst thing, one of the common things that happens in organisations, certainly my experience that undoes a lot of the benefits of employee voice is when action is taken as a result and or because everything that employees say that you connexion. But there is an explanation as to the why, why or why not.

[00:17:26.560] - Clare Josa
And there is a fee and also the feedback loop. So people, you know, are screaming in the wind. You tell the organisation the good things are bad, things are happening and you hear nothing. Especially with this particular child and service, because, you know, sometimes they can take a full six month run from question design through to action planning. And some from you know, often from the point where the explosive is close to action plan is radio silence about this, I suppose, if it didn't happen?

[00:17:59.930] - Clare Josa
Well, that's just the way to do that, just erodes trust in the process, a good way to trust in the process and also to create I guess it was all of that great, bad feeling, I guess, around amongst employees, because they've taken the time to share their feedback and taking the time to tell you what's working, what isn't working. And that reciprocation of, I guess, respect is not really there because you're not telling them what's the working on the actual plans.

[00:18:27.670] - Clare Josa
This is the next steps cetera. So there's this. There's this. That is the the closing. Think I came up with it, but certainly closing the feedback loop, listening to understand. And here are two things that the managers could do and I think also listening regularly. So creating opportunities not just when or before, during or after the organisational change, of course, is very important at those points, but also listening throughout an employee's life cycle, throughout throughout the year, throughout the years.

[00:19:07.220] - Clare Josa
It's so important because it's great when you ask people's opinion about big things. But often, as you know, the big things are much rarer than the everyday experience of going to work. And so actually having channels, whether they're digital or whether they're quick, you know, how things how how are things going? And you want as part of the one to one regular one to one, which I've experienced, is not that regular. I mean, I'm used to having them the person and having them, you know, once a week, once a fortnight, but have been in places where it's like, should we do it once a month?

[00:19:40.370] - Clare Josa
Is that are you really going to be able to track how employees are feeling with that level of regularity? I think there's a question mark there. So it's it's working with the employee, whether that's sort of one to one basis, their line manager or with a team basis team meetings with organisation work at the right cadence that really allows you to to regularly check up on how individual employees in the population as a whole are doing, feeling, thinking, ideas that they might have.

[00:20:10.760] - Clare Josa
And then, as I mentioned before, closing that feedback loops, there are things you can do that are low cost and said, hello, how are things how are things going at team meeting suggestion boxes? I mean, there's so many ideas. And actually, I could just recommend another report that I think would be quite useful. It has really practical tips for organisations is a report by the research group Dr Kevin Rock. A couple of other researchers as well spoke the Who's Listening report.

[00:20:41.900] - Clare Josa
And it's aimed at leaders and communicators and it has practical, practical tips, case studies and just and also a handy breakdown of the different types of listening and listening as a spectrum of activity. The report, Who's Listening and is in conjunction with the International Association for Business Communicators as well. So if you can do that, you'll be able to find that people can find me and be more than happy to share the link. But yeah, that's a great place to start if you're starting your listening journey, a journey into understanding and accessing and facilitating employee voice, a great papers, one I use regularly, which sounds amazing.

[00:21:19.790] - Clare Josa
And one of the things I love about what you're saying is that that listening. Yes. Is the big stuff, but it's also the little stuff. What I'm hearing a lot from my clients, my students, is I don't want to get on a tube. Yeah. I just don't want to be a sardine in that confined space. And then I get to the office and because of social distancing, we don't have our team desks anymore. So it's hot desking.

[00:21:40.640] - Clare Josa
Say I'm using a keyboard from somebody who the day before I don't know if they wash their hands, you know, and there isn't enough there aren't enough games in the workplace to be able to sanitise. And another big thing that's coming up for people, it's not so tiny. It's so many of us have got used to standing desks while we've been working from home. And we don't like working sitting down anymore. We like that feeling of confidence and groundedness and being able to move our lower backs and actually is a yoga teacher.

[00:22:06.650] - Clare Josa
I know that standing for working actually boosts creativity. It boosts the flow of the cerebral spinal fluid that may be dictated to me. What you're talking about the control of you for coming in this number of days a week, the fear that triggers for the commute, the fear that triggers with hot desking, and then the frustration it would trigger with people because they don't have a sense that they've been able to give some people bless their hearts. I've been sitting on their desks with a laptop, in their dressing gown, in the background, created these fantastic working spaces that they wish they could now have in the office.

[00:22:39.530] - Clare Josa
I'm not saying we need to pander, but we need to be thinking about big strategy and about the fine detail to meet everybody's needs. The other thing is the other thing you said that I think is incredibly important, I want to make sure everybody listening or watching live on the replay. His court is closing that loop, listening to hear in order to take action. Even if my question is, I'm sorry, we can't do this. And here is why.

[00:23:09.830] - Clare Josa
Because otherwise you are breaking the psychological contract of having asked for that feedback.

[00:23:15.170] - Annique Simpson
Absolutely not. Absolutely. Thanks. I mean, it is really about listening. And, you know, you and I have spoken about it in the lead up to this event around the simplicity of some of these things. I think doing things in the workplace conflict or the workplace or the workplace as a concept, not as a as a location feels, is very much like any other you know, it's very cool. It's a group of people meeting together.

[00:23:50.780] - Annique Simpson
It's a group of people coming together to what was common goal. And I think if we start to unpick every thought, to see it as a lot of these things that I'm saying the other people in the industry are saying around the value of listening and being heard, diversity, inclusion is another one. These all are concepts that we understand in our private personal life. We know what it's like not to be included in things, irrespective of what demographic groups we and we align ourselves to.

[00:24:21.380] - Annique Simpson
We know what it's like to be left out. We know what it's like to not be listened to as individuals, as you know, mothers, fathers, cousins, sisters, family members, friends. We know what it's like. And so it's it's not different in the workplace. I mean I mean, there is different in a sense of the workplace creates other sorts of has other angles that we don't necessarily have other elements that we coming in in in our own life.

[00:24:47.780] - Annique Simpson
But it's very cool. It's not very different. So the so the impact of listening to someone and saying I'm creating this space, whether it's a formal space with a message or just sticking to the one to one and having them and not using them as a space to talk about what delivery? Because I think that happens a lot. You get a look at it's like, have you done these calls? Have you met these targets? Have you very much focussed on the task of actually creating a space?

[00:25:15.020] - Annique Simpson
And there's nothing wrong with doing that, of course, but creating a space to say, how are you? How are things going? What, what, what Blocher's do you have? Or, you know, just creating that space for the person to say how they feel if they want to. It's no different than having that in the benefit. The benefit of others are similar at the very core as having that in your private life, is having that in private life, in your personal life, in your life outside of work.

[00:25:41.180] - Annique Simpson
And I think for me, that's what I try to do with my practises is is look at it. Try to take out of the work setting and try to get down to the nub of it, and that's why that's why I spend most of my time doing is this is the issue in the workplace. But what really gets picked for delay is commercials. And I'm don't saying there's unimportant commercials, politics and lots of what is at the core, because if we solve that often enough, that other stuff fades away.

[00:26:09.990] - Annique Simpson
Eventually get to the root of the problem. You solve the actual problem, not the problem that is being presented to you through the lens of work.

[00:26:18.060] - Clare Josa
I love that because that's that's how I live and breathe with my clients. It's never the surface level symptom that was actually the issue. And if we fix that, it's a sticky plaster and sticky plaster fall off. Yes. And it doesn't mean that we have to turn into therapists as leaders, but it is about understanding what is really true and what is it that, you know, where is the thorn that's causing the rest of the problem? How can I look at fixing this deeper issue?

[00:26:43.620] - Clare Josa
That's fantastic. Now, I can't believe how time has flown one little bit of brain activity. And I've got one question I really want to ask you to wrap up our discussion today, show you and I talked about things like how to make this communication so inclusive down to the practical stuff, like communication is often posters in the lifts. What about the people who aren't in the office that week who won't see the posters? There's a topic that I know is really important to you that's very, very close to my heart as well.

[00:27:15.090] - Clare Josa
You know, the whole what is inclusion, really, when we're looking at Hybrid working and how can we predict and avoid the unintended consequences of the decisions that we're making?

[00:27:28.620] - Annique Simpson
So inclusion in a hybrid working world environment really is around, which I think is powered by by two things. It's an understanding and acceptance that everybody is different. And therefore, whilst you cannot, as an organisation, as a leader, be able to cater to everybody's different, you need to understand that as a result of that, there are going to be some people will be unhappy and so and they will do what they need to do to make themselves happy.

[00:28:03.450] - Annique Simpson
Sometimes I stay in the organisation and cause all sorts of havoc. Well, sometimes to leave, but you need to be comfortable with that fact. And I think sometimes some organisations, people struggle with that and not struggle with that in terms of doing everything to make everybody happy. Actually struggle with that kind of the opposite way of life will be quite hard. This is the rule. This is how we're doing. And this that kind of come out of control management style almost as a response to people pulling and pulling against an actual example that I spoke about earlier is a great example about that, where you've got these very clear leadership, leadership very clearly say come to what works and saying, actually, no, we don't want that having a set of demands as to what they do want.

[00:28:48.060] - Annique Simpson
And that would be interesting to see where they land up to that. And then there's also. Really thinking about so that's one of the drivers, I think also really thinking about really thinking about the best way. So you got everybody will see something different. Every, you know, some want to do hybrid working someone to work from a much of a sense of come into the office. And I know folks and I think really it's it's from a communication perspective, it's providing as much information in as many different ways to individuals to be able to make an informed decision.

[00:29:22.490] - Annique Simpson
I think that's that's going to be crucial. And I think also. In terms of leadership communication perspective, does the how do we create fairness, a sense of fairness and sense of fairness? A key part of inclusion, because if you want the environment, it tends to be one which is equitable. So not necessarily the same for everybody, but allows everybody, gives everybody the same chance, which is a difference between quality and inequity. So this to this that I guess comes from looking at fairness and how people can how managers can start to look at what we talked in length about, listening to employees properly and trying to collaborate with employees.

[00:30:05.550] - Annique Simpson
So, you know, where you can get those ideas, get the work of the employees to build your new future, to build you and try to get them to be part of it. As I mentioned, for acknowledging employees views and that they have different views. And you can say that this may not that this doesn't necessarily work for everyone, but here's why. What for us as an organisation and people can make a decision. I think that's another thing I'd say as part of this kind of control command management is the sense that people that have free will, people have free will, and they can choose.

[00:30:33.750] - Annique Simpson
And it's OK, you can lay everything on the table that you think they might want and they might choose something else. And I think the more the House leadership and particularly the common person, because, you know, most of my most of the judgement in terms of how successful I am is this is whether I change people's behaviour, which, of course, I can only I can only do that to a point because people decide whether they want to change their own behaviour.

[00:30:58.740] - Annique Simpson
So I think it's almost like letting go of the need to to the everybody's going to do exactly as you want them to do, to feel exactly as you want them to feel. You can try as much as you can, but there is a point where people need to make their decisions and communicating for the benefit of your audience, not for you. And I think that's inclusive as well as really understanding who are your employees, what are they thinking and how can I then what do they what their preferences are on communication and how can I as a leader, I as a communications manager, professional, meet them where they are because ultimately communication is in the recipient, not the communicator.

[00:31:37.320] - Annique Simpson
And so that focus is really important. I think when you do have bad news, when you do have difficult news, is really giving employees a chance to process the information. Give them a chance to think about what it is that you're telling them, whether it's, you know, you have to come into work three days a week, give them some time to process it, give you the opportunity to share their views, to voice their concerns that they're happy to come back.

[00:32:01.310] - Annique Simpson
And that's not all doom and gloom. I believe we need to be all negative and doing and that's particularly important during times of change, which as we know now, it's a constant cycle of change, not least because of changing the guidelines and then telling them the why. Why not one decision that is crucial to the inclusive practise inspective, because people need to understand we're right if we are rational, traditionally, our core theoretical rational beings would like to unite us because, see, we like to have that steady flow.

[00:32:36.230] - Annique Simpson
It helps us to understand information. So if you can give those rationales and I think one of the one my last point, I guess, around inclusive environments in hybrid setting really is around this notion that you can create and I mentioned a bit earlier, but just to really hammer home the point that you can. Create the aim, I think, when it comes to inclusive practise, hybrid or otherwise in hybrid working, which otherwise is really to create a space where people can come in and feel like I can be as much of myself as I want to be at work and still have all the opportunities that I should be able to get because of the work through the what I do.

[00:33:20.410] - Annique Simpson
And some people grab that with both hands and rush into it. Head first, really be part of your environment, your working environment of workplace organisation. That's fantastic. Others may be completely resistant to the sense of really breaking down the barriers between work and life. But still do a good job. And that's OK. And I think the more that we were OK with the fact that some people just don't want to share things about themselves of what they just don't want to do any of the extra work, work and connectivity outside of doing their job.

[00:33:57.810] - Annique Simpson
And I think that we need as a society, as a working society, should really get comfortable and be accepting of those people that because they're doing good work and being themselves and and they should feel safe. The PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY is as much about catering to those people who all want to be reserve and hold things back on a personal level versus those who really want to grab all the opportunity to be part of the working environment. And the other thing is, I think one would either I think we would risk alienating those people who want to come into work and making them feel bad about it when actually they're doing a good job.

[00:34:38.130] - Annique Simpson
And if they're doing a good job, then that should that should be the basis on which we make judgements. I guess so. And that and obviously in the hybrid working to working from home environment, that can feel even more resistant from a management perspective because, you know, you can't see the person and now they're not really engaging in after work drinks, for example, of the in games. But that that shouldn't be a reason to to think that they're doing anything wrong or untoward.

[00:35:06.640] - Annique Simpson
Is that trust really and that trust and allowing people to be who they are. And that truly is inclusion.

[00:35:13.260] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And on Friday, we're going to be talking to Joanna rawboned about the difference between introverts and extroverts, which Tizen have reached, the point you just made there in a case where a lot of us know I'm a very strong introvert, although I love being on stage, I get my energies required time. So if you've got members of your team who previously maybe did join in with stuff outside ours and now they're not, it could just be that their introvert battery is empty or they don't have the wrap around childcare they used to have after school.

[00:35:41.730] - Clare Josa
You know, it doesn't mean they've disengaged, but we still need to have that conversation to find out if there's something wrong and what I love about what you said there and without judging. So we need to go into these conversations with no assumptions, without overlaying our filters, just genuinely with curiosity, find out what is happening to that human being and whether they need us to do something to support them.

[00:36:05.880] - Annique Simpson
I couldn't agree with you. That is it in a nutshell. And, you know, inclusion opening the door. So many people will walk with someone, but keep that door open for them. And that's the that is the challenge, I think, particularly after losses, civil rights protests, global protest is really keeping the door open for those who want to and open in the same way that is open for everybody else. Who is he does engage who are fully engaged to say who are part of the majority of other people that you can see, the people that you can see.

[00:36:42.990] - Annique Simpson
And I think that's important, particularly for environments where people are working 100 percent of the time, because I know there's a lot of writing coming out around has been for some time for a little bit of time during the pandemic about career opportunities and how they will change because of the people from whom, and particularly in organisations where you are given the choice. So expect to control. It's that it's that illusion of control potentially, is that even if you say to people, yes, you can work giving Twitter as an example, you give people control.

[00:37:15.720] - Annique Simpson
But it be interesting to see what impact that has on people's career development and career opportunities because, yes, as an organisation, you might say, yes, of course you could choose where you might have come out last week, say pretty much anything what you like, but how does that translate into people's assessments of a person's work, assessments of their their culture fit? And what will that mean for that person's career in the organisation? Because the company can say what it likes is as an entity.

[00:37:48.090] - Annique Simpson
But we know that line managers and local management is where the true power is, is, is in terms of an individual employee's experience. Might be interesting to see how that is navigated, but I guess we would see that for for years to come.

[00:38:01.140] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. But in our communications, we need to be looking out for the warning signs of us getting that balance wrong. And I need to wrap it up there because we can talk for days. It's so fascinating and so important. And your passion and wisdom in this subject has shone through. Everybody who's joined us live today. Thank you so much for being part of this. Everybody watching the replay or listening to the replay. Annique, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you so you could find me between Twitter and LinkedIn on Twitter?

[00:38:29.850] - Clare Josa
I'm Anique Underscore Simpson and Kiwi Simpson, as you'd expect, and Annique Simpsons Watlington as well as the best places to find me. The blog, which is Annique Simpsons dot com. So just my name and he says Wordnik other for this many of us out there.

[00:38:46.980] - Clare Josa
So it's been amazing to talk with you and me. Thank you so much for giving me your time. I cannot wait to hear what action people go and take with what you've shared today.

[00:38:57.760] - Annique Simpson
I think you'd great to talk to you.

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Consciously Creating Highly Motivated Hybrid Teams – Interview With Jenny Ainsworth

Wondering how to keep your hybrid team motivated, when they feel like ships-in-the-night? Or how to build consensus on what hybrid working should look like when everyone has different needs? Or how to build flexibility into your leadership style, so you can inspire your team to get results, no matter what is going on, without leaving them feeling burnt out? Join me for this interview with Jenny Ainsworth, Leadership And Motivation Consultant.

Consciously Building Highly Motivated, Collaborative Teams

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What We Cover In This Interview:

What does it take to inspire and motivate a team, without turning into 'Tigger'?
What is a 'team charter'? And how why is it an essential element of the shift to hybrid working?
How can you help team members to feel involved and heard, rather than resentful at hybrid decisions being 'imposed'?
What is the absolute key to leading a highly motivated team?
What are Jenny's 'three little words' which need to form the heart of all leadership decisions?

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[00:00:05.570] - Clare Josa
So welcome to today's interview with Jenny Ainsworth as part of a locked down leadership conference #makinghybridwork season. Now, I love talking with Jenny. She is a leadership and motivation consultant and she really knows how to get to the nub of what we're avoiding. So it sets us free to actually be able to inspire people more effectively. And Jenny's approach is no nonsense, but full of compassion. What we're going to be talking about today with her down to earth style is how to motivate our hybrid teams, how to create a team charter for hybrid working so that everybody feels involved and included and it doesn't create a two tier society.

[00:00:46.340] - Clare Josa
We're going to look at really understanding every member needs, and we're going to look at building flex and fluidity into your leadership style, including her three essential words that every leader needs to know, whether it's Hybrid working or any other form of decision. So, Jenny, a huge welcome to you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:01:08.360] - Jenny Ainsworth
Oh, delighted to be here. It's been a fantastic conference. So neat. It is so timely. So I'm really pleased to be part of it. Thanks, Claire.

[00:01:15.710] - Clare Josa
You're very welcome. So, Jenny, before we start a question, I've never actually asked you, how did you get to do what you do now?

[00:01:22.310] - Jenny Ainsworth
Oh, good grief. I think my last corporate position was at Disney. Actually, I was the European training manager for Disney. So we used to get a lot of bring in a lot of consultants and different people. And I got to the stage where and this sounds incredibly showy off and being British, we don't like the show, but the people that we were paying to come into the business, I just felt a lot of the time that what they were doing was very tame, very sort of phoning it in.

[00:01:52.430] - Jenny Ainsworth
It wasn't bespoke enough. It was a case of this is what I've got and I'll sort of make it fit. And I just got to the stage right. Though I don't think people are asking the right questions of the businesses to really find out what's needed. And it also coincided with me hitting the big 30. So that milestone time. And I just thought, you know, I'm going to go out and give it a bash, have been a consultant in my own right and try to be the consultant I'm longing for within businesses.

[00:02:19.220] - Jenny Ainsworth
And I gave myself a year. That was 20 years ago.

[00:02:22.010] - Clare Josa
So and I love that. And it's funny. What you say is 30 was actually the year I jumped out of my corporate role as well to set up my business, too. And as you say, you don't look back now. Absolutely. So, Jenny, talk to me about motivation, OK? Because a lot of people that I'm talking with at the moment are in survival. They can't even imagine a thriving. And when you talk to leaders, they're so busy trying to work out the how of how we can make hybrid working at the thought of being quite to also motivate their teams.

[00:02:53.480] - Clare Josa
Interesting, the sort of Disney link. They start thinking that they've got to behave like some kind of cartoon character. Yeah. Can you help us understand what you mean by motivating teams and how somebody can do that without having to be super high energy?

[00:03:08.690] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yeah, absolutely right. Because I'm so glad you picked up on that very often when we think about motivation and and, you know, we've got to be high energy, as you say, to use a Disney link. People automatically think Tyga. And then we've got to be the sort of fabulous manager that's sort of doing all of this. Well, that's a kindergarten teacher. And the thing is motivation. All of us are on a spectrum. Some of those, you know, if we think of it on a scale of one to 10, some of us need to be on an eight to feel that we can do even just to get out of bed in the morning.

[00:03:44.360] - Jenny Ainsworth
Some of us actually can be a little bit low down, might be on a three, and that is perfectly acceptable for them to get up and to be their best. But the fact of the matter is, we are all unique individuals. So leaders have got to find where are you now? How is that in terms of your usual base, small? Can you benchmark? Are you feeling demotivated? Are you sort of there or thereabouts and rather than OK, we've got to get you to ten, you know that we've got to get you completely motivated.

[00:04:12.020] - Jenny Ainsworth
It's very much what would better look like, because if you are feeling on a three out of ten and you really want to be a much, much higher up, that seems too far out of reach. And that's when actually we can push people away, rather then what would a fall look like and feel like? Let's let's get you to that, because then we feel we're capable of achieving a bit more. Then we can look at what five looks like.

[00:04:34.880] - Jenny Ainsworth
So it really is a spectrum, I think. And and it's helping leaders help that people know where they are on that spectrum. And that's not that sliding scale and what needs to happen to nudge them a little bit.

[00:04:46.190] - Clare Josa
So I absolutely love this because there are some people who look down, for example, who've been juggling carer responsibilities. Some people have been trying to educate their children at the same time. And that level of motivation is going to look very different to somebody who has been thriving, potentially other secret warning signs that we as leaders can look for. That motivation has dropped with a team member, and it might be time for us to have a chat with them without making them feel guilty and bad.

[00:05:12.580] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yeah, I think the one thing that I really encourage ladies to be is to be detectives. You're always piecing together a crime scene. And by that, you know, it's notice how people usually respond in emails and when they're on camera and how much they contribute in team meetings. Notice when it doesn't seem to be their notice, when people are ever so slightly snippy or a bit more abrupt, because that's when, again, it's the telltale signs that somebody is just feeling ever so slightly snippy is the word, I think.

[00:05:47.560] - Jenny Ainsworth
But that slip, if we don't manage that stuff, then becomes hugely overwhelmed. And we all know when we get overwhelmed, sometimes it feels impossible to get out of that feeling. So it's be observe and notice. Notice ladies have got to notice. And as is employees and team members, we want to be noticed. That's not micromanage. But I want to feel that you have noticed what's going on with me. You know what I've noticed when I'm contributing at my best and be grateful for that.

[00:06:19.210] - Jenny Ainsworth
But notice when I'm dialling it down a little bit because then I feel valued.

[00:06:23.890] - Clare Josa
This is really, really important because sometimes as a leader or a line manager or even as a colleague, we might notice and we don't want to say anything. We don't want to cause offence or we don't want to get it wrong. That awful moment where you congratulate somebody on a pregnancy and you just find out is actually we can tolerance. Yes. We don't want to be doing that over somebody's sort of emotional, mental, energetic state. And for those of you who've been watching the whole conference, actually the interview that I did just on Wednesday with Marie Coombes, the mediator trainer, if you don't know how to handle that difficult conversation with someone about their motivation, she had some great tips in there.

[00:06:58.750] - Clare Josa
Go and listen to that one as well. Right, Jenny, looking at motivation, if we're looking at the white team, what are your strategies and recommendations that motivating the whole team rather than just the individuals? What can leaders be looking out to do late?

[00:07:15.490] - Jenny Ainsworth
At the end of the day, you are you are leading the team. That doesn't mean to say that you are making every decision and everything for the team. And together you have to come to some conclusions together as a team. And so in terms of motivation, we've got to make the implicit explicit. So by that, I mean we all need to come together and share what's going on inside. What what what helps me be at my best, what drives me crazy, which very often we don't tell anybody.

[00:07:50.110] - Jenny Ainsworth
We just get sort of a little bit irritated, you know, in terms of some of the things, how people might communicate, etc. But we don't tend to actually have a say anything. We just remain irritated. So I think leaders have got to bring everybody together and say we're a team, you know, yes, I lead. We're all part of it together. And what needs to happen for you to feel that you are contributing at your best, you're being hurt or being seen and you're being at your best.

[00:08:19.030] - Jenny Ainsworth
What do you need, what do you absolutely not need? And get people to sort of contribute to that discussion. And there's ways of doing that, which I'll come to. But then it becomes a collective collaborative discussion and collaborative decision, which is, OK, these are the things that we're pulling out which which are going to help all of us be. It's our best for one another.

[00:08:43.390] - Clare Josa
That's fantastic. Jenny, how can we build that discussion? Because I'm really curious.

[00:08:48.520] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yeah, so here's the thing. And very often I think, you know, we need to take some things on board as a leader. And and I've always encouraged leaders to say if there was just one thing that you would like me to either start doing or stop doing or perhaps do a bit more, what would it be? And, you know, the first time I was I was told this when I was a leader, I remember feeling a little bit I don't know what I want to ask them that.

[00:09:17.110] - Jenny Ainsworth
And, you know, and the coach who I was working with said what a really quite innocuous questions, you know? And I said, OK, but what happens if they say, well, you can start looking for another job? That would be really helpful to me on the coach said, I honestly don't think they will. I think they will come up with things that are so innocuous that will never have crossed your radar because they are not important to you.

[00:09:41.890] - Jenny Ainsworth
And so you won't see them. And actually, they were completely right. And it is never failed me since and it's never failed me with with other people. And it will be things like how often we meet, emails, meetings, they'll be really innocuous things. And so that's the first part, because then as a leader, I am asking you. I am listening. And I'm acting and that in and of itself, I have found, has brought me and my teams together because they have a sense of thank you, thank you for actually asking my opinion.

[00:10:16.590] - Jenny Ainsworth
Thank you for honouring it. And it has been really rare and I mean so rare that somebody gives us something that I thought I just cannot fundamentally do that at all. There might be elements, I think I can't do it all, but let's have a talk about it. So if there's anybody cynical listening in. Yes, but what happens if they ask? It's so rare and I haven't seen it. So that's the first part as a leader, which is sort of asking those sorts of things.

[00:10:43.290] - Jenny Ainsworth
However. We've got to think about the people in our team. I'm a really fast thinker, so if somebody says to me, what do you want? You know, one thing that you would love for me to say, I would think, um, you know what? And I would be able to think like that. Somebody who's a bit more of a Reflektor, somebody who needs time to process, will go. And then we sort of we're sitting here thinking that, you know, anybody there and we need to give people their thinking time that they personally need in order to give us the treasure, you know, so sometimes if you are going to be running a meeting like this or or asking your team members to contribute and to say this is what motivates me, this is what irritates me, this is what I'd love to say.

[00:11:35.510] - Jenny Ainsworth
There are some people who if you gave them a heads up a couple of days before, they're not going to look at it until the day because they're the fast thinkers. But the more reflective people, they need to feel that they can contribute to that meeting. So maybe we can give them a couple of days notice to think, reflect and come with their thoughts, then everybody is able to contribute on an equal level at the same time.

[00:12:00.230] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And also that understanding that you can give me feedback and it's not going to limit your career.

[00:12:05.900] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yes, exactly. That's exactly that. And actually, that's a really valid point because, you know, if we I've often said such a people, if somebody just sort of grabbed you in the corridor, do you remember when people grab you in the corridor in days of yore anyway and said to you, how can I just give you a bit of feedback? You know, what would be your initial response? And most people sort of 90 percent of the time, their initial response is, oh, this is going to be negative.

[00:12:38.390] - Jenny Ainsworth
So even though we talk about feedback and having a feedback culture, it still resonates in that part of the brain of all. What are you going to tell me? So these these are really simple questions that we can ask which encourage people to to give feedback in a positive way, but recognise, as you say, that is going to be used in a positive way rather than use having a petulant response or a pushback or a dismiss. And I think that's really useful as well in terms of building a feedback culture.

[00:13:09.650] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. Absolutely. And realising that feedback is not personal. And what I love about what you were discussing there is it's about it's about actions and behaviours rather than you as a leader. It's not about you as a person.

[00:13:22.400] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yes, exactly.

[00:13:23.840] - Clare Josa
So looking at how to bring all of this together, I know you talk about a team charter for getting buy in and helping to motivate people. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

[00:13:33.450] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yes, I talk a little bit about what are the things that we need to consider in terms of how we're going to operate. We're a group of individuals who are coming together and are contributing at to team level. So let's have a think about things like how often do we want to meet and for how long and why? Why are we meeting? What is the purpose of meeting? And I promise you, if we say to people, why do you have a team meeting, very often they say was to date, and it's to keep people informed of what's going on.

[00:14:08.300] - Jenny Ainsworth
That is not an answer to the question, because to keep people updated, we have Internet sites, we have emails, we have everything going up. So why are you bringing this group of people together on a Tuesday at 10 o'clock? So it's really thinking, why are we doing it? You know what what are the outputs? What are the outcomes that we're trying to get to and then to share things like a little bit about our own preferences, how we prefer to be communicated with.

[00:14:38.030] - Jenny Ainsworth
Some people say, please just pick up the phone. Honestly, I will always, always answer your call. I'd rather do that than have an email. Other people say, I haven't picked up the phone in seven years. Don't call me because I will look at it in absolute abject horror. Who says yes, exactly? But we don't. We tend to communicate in a way that suits us. But if we're trying to get the best out of other people, if I'm aware that Claire is working from home, she has to do the school run.

[00:15:13.340] - Jenny Ainsworth
So actually, there's not a great deal of point in trying to get a response to Claire before nine thirty. And that helps me because I think what time is it? Okay, she's not home yet, so I'll either manage it myself or I'll wait a few minutes. Then we've been honouring and respectful of everybody's communication styles, honouring of peoples working times and when they can be at their best when not. So it's not set in stone a team charter.

[00:15:40.880] - Jenny Ainsworth
But I recommend things like communication meetings and how we going to hold ourselves accountable to this. And everybody hates the word accountable. But it's almost if we're doing this, we're doing it and it's for us and it's to make it successful. So if we notice that things are drifting again, what are we going to do? What's what are going to be the signs? So we keep it fluid and flexible and working for us. And it's. Have so many great results in all the teams that I've worked with and across different businesses, because so often, like I mentioned earlier, the things that we hold inside are very implicit.

[00:16:17.740] - Jenny Ainsworth
We just assume that other people know when we make the implicit explicit. It's so helpful to everybody.

[00:16:24.280] - Clare Josa
Absolutely, because as part of a team, we generally don't go out there with a mission to upset each other. Yes. So if we can understand what people's needs are, then we can accommodate as many of them as we reasonably can. Yeah, and one of the things I'm seeing a lot in organisations at the moment is companies saying, right, everybody's in two days a week in the office, make it work. And one of the things we touched on before we came on air today is the difference between true hybrid working and just flexible working.

[00:16:54.820] - Clare Josa
What are your thoughts on that?

[00:16:56.560] - Jenny Ainsworth
I mean, flexible working for me is much, much more around. You know, I am going to just work from home, but I'm going to do early morning until eight thirty. Then I'm going to take a couple of hours off because that works for me better. I'm going to be dialling in on the evening doing all of that, and I'm going to come into work one day a week. So all of that lovely flexibility is great and hybrid working there are definitely similarities.

[00:17:22.450] - Jenny Ainsworth
But Hybrid working is saying if if if you are at your best and if you contribute and perform at your best, everybody wins, you win, the team wins. Eyewitness leader, our business wins. So what does that look like for you? Does that mean that you are going to be in the office five days a week? You know, what does it look like? And really exploring that in the best possible way. So there are definitely some similarities, but I think we need to be clear about what true hybrid working really means.

[00:17:57.250] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. As you say, you know, if somebody actually finds that they're massively more productive at home, then arbitrarily dragging them into the office just to sit in the office with the same laptop and check the same emails doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. And what you talked about earlier about having that intention behind things like a team meeting, if you're going to ask people to all be in the office on the same day is give them a reason.

[00:18:19.930] - Clare Josa
Yes. And not just presenteeism. Yeah. And something else that's really important to me at the moment is I think a lot of organisations haven't quite sussed that September is still going to be really tricky for people. For example, with school age children, you know, this this diktat, if you're in the office two or three days a week. Well, at the moment, a lot of the old commuter trains are still not running on the timetable, which is really messed up.

[00:18:45.640] - Clare Josa
The commute for people. A lot of schools are still not offering the wraparound care that we used to have, the childminders that we used to rely on. A lot of them have had to quit and go and get other jobs. And also we are still going to be in a position in September where schools will close because people have tested positive for covid and parents then have to be working from home and home schooling again. And I think that a lot of organisations haven't quite sussed that yet.

[00:19:12.190] - Clare Josa
How do you have any advice if somebody is in a leadership role and they're making these decisions about how to make hybrid working, how can we make sure we don't end up with a two tier workforce where, you know, the classic millennials sort of genocide are in the office the whole time, getting the opportunities and the promotions and all the working parents are working at home being completely overlooked.

[00:19:35.290] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yeah, we've got so much to do in that. First of all, you know, Hybrid working is fabulous and people having this great choice, which so, so often they didn't have before. But what we need to to avoid is, as you quite say, a divisive workforce where simply because I'm working from home, I'm not having the watercooler moments of bumping into one another. And, you know, we come together on a meeting and some things mentioned.

[00:20:02.950] - Jenny Ainsworth
And so what's what's this? Oh, yeah. Claire and I were just talking earlier. It's where we sorted it. And all of a sudden there's this tension, you know, so that needs to be absolutely addressed. The other thing that you mentioned there in terms of leaders is we've got hybrid working has got to be hugely flexible and malleable and forgiving, hugely forgiving, because these things could could well happen where, you know, somebody, a parent, a working parent might be back at it back into the office.

[00:20:36.910] - Jenny Ainsworth
And all of the sudden, you know, something's happened, just closes down and they have to be working from home for two weeks. And we don't want eye rolling and all of that sort of stuff from the rest of the team. So I think, first of all, we need to call the elephant out of the room. And as a leader, I'll be saying this could happen for Bill. Both Mary, you know, we hope it doesn't for their sake as much as ours.

[00:20:57.940] - Jenny Ainsworth
And if it does, what we need to do is to look at the best way of helping them manage the situation and indeed helping us manage the situation. So let's think about what? It might look like before it happens, so we can respond rather than frantically react. And I also think that in doing that, a leader is staying strategic and open and thinking about the potential bumps in the road rather than, you know, originally it was 21st of June.

[00:21:26.040] - Jenny Ainsworth
What is it now? 1992, July. Everything's good. We're all good to go because it isn't going to be like that. So let's really have our eyes wide open. Let's really think about what could be a bump in the road. How likely is it to happen and what does that require of all of us to deal with it in the best possible way and have that conversation as a collective rather than a lead to taking that on both themselves and managing it themselves?

[00:21:52.110] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And one of the things I'm seeing is a stress response from some leaders is that dictating, that imposing and by asking people actually, what could you achieve? Can you actually physically get into the office by nine o'clock anymore? Does that train simply not exist now? And that Breakfast Club doesn't exist for the kids, meaning that's no longer an option for you. Or if you had to do it, it would be a very stressful thing involving breakfast, time, playdates and all that kind of thing, talking to people about what they can and can't achieve rather than assuming if you say X number of days in the office for presenteeism purposes and somehow they will make it work.

[00:22:29.530] - Clare Josa
Because one of the things we've certainly found at home was we had regular discussions, my husband and I. How did we ever make it work with him in London? Full time. Yeah. And we realised that the way we made it work isn't actually an option for us anymore. And certainly him going into the office becomes almost like an expedition. There is so many pieces to put in place. And whilst we can make that work, what organisations will find is that some employees will start to resent how difficult it's become.

[00:23:00.510] - Clare Josa
And if we haven't given them a Y on what we're asking them to do, then they haven't bought into it. They feel it's imposed on them and they're much more likely to then either underperform or start sending out their surveys.

[00:23:13.800] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yes, I do that. I often say resentment is one of the worst emotions because it really is cancerous. It starts to cloud your judgement, your thinking, everything when you are resentful about something or something being pushed onto you with no consultation, etc., we can become incredibly, incredibly resentful and there's not a great deal of need for it if we do it right.

[00:23:40.290] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And it's really important, I think, for leaders not to be scared of asking opinions and asking people to voice their needs, because then we often have that feeling of, oh my goodness, but then somehow I need to please everybody. Well, actually, we don't. We just need to consider the needs and agree as a team what would be fair and workable.

[00:24:00.180] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yeah. And I've often said to my teams that I want to listen and hear what you're all looking for. We'll have to make a decision to suit the collective, which means that there'll be some things we will will be doing which will suit some of you. And some of the things will do may not suit others. However, I have to make a decision based on everything and at some point put my stake in the ground. And for those of you who are not negatively impacts, but it's not as great as it is for others, I promise you I will work with you directly to look at, OK, how can we make sure that you can maximise this rather than say, well, that's just great, I haven't been considered at all.

[00:24:42.660] - Jenny Ainsworth
So again, it's transparency and saying up front, I'll listen to everybody, I'll take on board everything. But at some point I need to make a decision and I will personally work with anybody for whom that decision doesn't fit as nice as perhaps to the people.

[00:24:59.040] - Clare Josa
And that's a brilliant way of looking at it, Jenny. And it's also I think it's important for us to understand as leaders that getting that information from people is probably not going to happen. And team meeting because people will conform to the group think, you know, it takes an awful lot of courage to take on a virtual meeting to put your hand up and say, actually, I'm the only one in the room that can't do this. Yes. You don't want to create that bad feeling.

[00:25:23.280] - Clare Josa
So it's our job as leaders to make sure that we've connected with what people really need rather than with what they kind of compromised on, because otherwise that resentment will still be there, even though we've tried to elicit that opinion.

[00:25:35.280] - Jenny Ainsworth
Yes, exactly. That's exactly that.

[00:25:37.380] - Clare Josa
OK, so to wrap up, Jenny, because this has just been amazing and I'm aware we're getting close to that half hour point line here. I know that you have a three word strategy that is vital for leaders in Hybrid working and leadership generally. What are those three words and why are they so important?

[00:25:57.480] - Jenny Ainsworth
We often say, you know, the little three words, I love you. I have three different ones. I'm not suggesting as leaders we go round as a fan of the football team members. What I am suggesting. Is these three words think, feel and do are so critical to having your leadership armoury, and we should consider this every time we send an email, every time we have a meeting at a team meeting. And it is as a result of me doing this and holding this meeting, what do I want my people to think?

[00:26:28.140] - Jenny Ainsworth
What do I want them to feel and what do I want them to do? And I don't think that we consider those enough. As I mentioned earlier, we always have the team meeting at 10 o'clock on the Tuesday. Everybody gives a bit of an update. Then I share, you know, some things for the week and it's all great. But if I really thought about it, we're all fatigued in terms of meetings. I want my meeting to be the best of the week, so I want them to think it is a really good use of their time.

[00:26:57.300] - Jenny Ainsworth
I want them to feel that they are able to contribute at a high level. I want them to feel heard seeing all of those things. And what do I want them to do? I want them to go off feeling inspired and able to do their job better than they could do an hour ago. How is the current meeting format serving that? And very often it doesn't. So again, we need to come back and think, OK, what needs to change?

[00:27:23.130] - Jenny Ainsworth
What needs to be different in order for my people to think, feel and do what they need to think, feel and do to be at their best. And those three three things, I promise you, if you apply them to so many different aspects of your work, life will make a fundamental difference to motivation, performance and productivity.

[00:27:43.680] - Clare Josa
I absolutely love this. The concept of what do I need, what do I need to create to allow my meeting to be the highlight of the week? I'm it's not something I'm guessing most of what they considered is kind of like 30 meetings awake. Yeah. Why not? Going back to Disney, you don't have to be Tyga. Yeah, it's what do I need them to think, to feel to do for this to have been the highlight of their week.

[00:28:09.810] - Clare Josa
Because if they look forward to that meeting, they're going to bring a very different version of themselves. Yes. Exactly. Absolutely. So, Jenny, just before we wrap up, tell people how they can get in touch with you on how you can help them, what sort of resources you've got for them.

[00:28:28.110] - Clare Josa
I have got and I put a link into the into the charts and Claire can share that as well. I've got three things. First of all, I have a an old called Fire Up Your Life. And it's got it's an audio download and it's also got the transcript because some people prefer to read rather than listen. And it's just a 30 minute pep talk, punchy pep talk, just to get you thinking about how do I think how do I approach life?

[00:28:54.420] - Jenny Ainsworth
Is it serving meaning the best way? Could it be different? And I've got a Gen's Gems newsletter, which again, is just a punchy newsletter that comes out just to give me some thinking, some different perspectives to help you in your life work. And this also liberated, which is a 45 minute audio and personal guidebook, which is specifically for women to help them sort of shake off the shackles of playing small or serving everybody else before themselves.

[00:29:22.770] - Clare Josa
I absolutely love these Jenny Ainsworth for those of you on the replay, you can find those at Jenny Ainsworth dot com forward slash free hyphen resources and also go find Jenny on LinkedIn, track her down, connect, let her know what your actions are going to be as a result of listening to or watching this session. And Jenny, to wrap up, firstly, an enormous thank you to you for giving your time, sharing your wisdom. I've been in this field for years and I'm still sitting there wanting to scribble notes.

[00:29:50.280] - Clare Josa
This has been such a useful session. If you could share one more thing with people who are managing teams or working with co-workers who want to help them feel motivated without turning into taker, what is the one last piece of advice you'd like to share today?

[00:30:06.870] - Jenny Ainsworth
Dialogue. Keep talking. Keep asking. Keep listening. What is right for one person in your team is not right for somebody else. We're not expecting you as leaders to bend and shape and be different for everybody. But if you can think of yourself as on a dial, what do you need to dial for person A? What do you need to dial down the person? B, you're still being yourself, but you're you're just making those slight reductions which enabled the other people to to to respond in the best possible way to you and to be the best that they can be.

[00:30:39.600] - Jenny Ainsworth
So just keep talking. Just keep listening. Keep acting.

[00:30:43.860] - Clare Josa
That's absolutely fantastic. Jenny, thank you so much. Everyone go find her at Jenny Ainsworth dot com or over on lengthen. This has been a truly inspirational episode.

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Handling Difficult Conversations Without Creating Conflict – Interview With Marie Coombes

Want to know how to handle difficult conversations, when you're not in a room together? Or how to communicate your return-to-the-office policies without triggering people job-hunting? Or how to prevent the conflict that's looming for two of the hottest - and most-ignored - topics that are facing offices? In today's Lockdown Leadership Conference interview with award-winning mediator, Marie Coombes, we're talking about:

Creating Change Without Conflict And Handling Difficult Conversations To
Deepen Connections

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What We Cover In This Interview:

What are difficult conversations?
What's the current big topic that workplaces are avoiding, and how will that trigger problems?
How can virtual leaders manage those who want to stay home-working vs those who want to come back full time?
Strategies for communicating properly to avoid conflict
Managing upwards – raising difficult topics with your manager
What's the next big topic that we need to proactively handle, to avoid creating a two-tier workforce?

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Click To Read The Transcript - Please Forgive Typos!

Note: the video also has captions, to aid accessibility.

[00:00:07.650] - Clare Josa
So good morning, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm thrilled to be able to talk with Marie Coombes today. She's an award winning mediator trainer. She's also a mental health first aid, a trainer. And she specialises in helping people to have the conversations that we've convinced ourselves a difficult in ways to prevent conflict, to facilitate deeper connexion and to restore that sense of calm. So welcome, Marie. It's wonderful to have you join us.

[00:00:35.390] - Clare Josa
Hello.

[00:00:37.270] - Marie Coombes
.Absolutely fantastic to be here. You know, I love talking to you.

[00:00:41.780] - Clare Josa
And Marie, one thing that I've never asked you that I'd love to start with today is how on earth did you end up as a mediator trainer by accident?

[00:00:51.980] - Marie Coombes
Pretty much before I opened up my company, I worked for Royal Mail for 17 years. And I was in a really, really low key position back in 2014 where they were setting up an in-house mediation session. And I kind of like the idea of of mediation. You know, it kind of fitted with my mentality and helping people pull through sort of difficult situations, left it right until the very last minute to apply applied along with 700 other people, 10 jobs.

[00:01:23.150] - Marie Coombes
And I got one of them. And I have never looked back. It was the best decision I ever made.

[00:01:27.800] - Clare Josa
That's fantastic. I had no idea about that, Marie. And one of the things everybody listening and watching I love about Marie is that Marie is very grounded and down to earth and practical. So where the conversation, you know, the topic of difficult conversations can get quite esoteric and quite left brained and quite model based. When you work with Marie, you just feel safe. Yeah. You just know there's not going to be any drama and I just feel held.

[00:01:54.120] - Clare Josa
Yeah. I've never had to work with you as a mediator, which in some ways is fortunate. But just just the conversations that we've had, you just feel safe to be able to open up and be you, which is a real gift, Marie, that you share with the world.

[00:02:07.040] - Marie Coombes
Absolutely. And it's at the heart of everything I do as well. I am on a mission to make people feel safe.

[00:02:12.650] - Clare Josa
Thank you. So, Marie, I'd like to start with what is your definition of what are difficult conversations?

[00:02:20.840] - Marie Coombes
It's it's anything that invokes the for the Fight-flight-freeze or for response. And it's those conversations we avoid that we think that we're going to get in an argument with anything that we have fear of, you know, fear of the consequences of speaking up. Power struggles are a big thing as well. Obviously, talking to your manager or feeling that somebody else has has more power than you. It doesn't even necessarily to be a manager subordinate relationship issues if you perceive that they have more power than you.

[00:02:51.380] - Marie Coombes
So it's pretty much anything that invokes those photographs and automatically triggers that response in your brain. This is going to be difficult.

[00:03:00.320] - Clare Josa
OK, so the kind of thing I'd expect people to be seeing that. And you can tell me if you see this is is something I talk a lot about with clients called the Flinch factor. Where you think about the conversation is something tightens in your body is that could be really useful. Early warning sign. If you're thinking about that conversation, you kind of go, oh, in your body is like, OK, this is where I need to go and listen to what Marie has to say.

[00:03:24.590] - Clare Josa
Thank you. Now, I know you said just when we were chatting before we got on life interview, there's some research that you've been reading about that absolutely blew my mind.

[00:03:35.690] - Marie Coombes
Yeah. So there was a study done by 18 months ago now where they were investigating why why people avoid the conversation. Out of that study, 80 percent of people were avoiding difficult conversations, which didn't surprise me in the slightest. What did surprise me was some of the other figures, one in 10, delay that conversation for at least a year and a further one in 10 delay it for at least two years, which that is a terrifying statistic because those people that are delaying those conversations are stuck in that forever.

[00:04:09.950] - Marie Coombes
So they are stuck in that situation. Every time they see that person, every time they have to have an interaction with that person, it immediately triggers one of those photographs again, because they know that they're avoiding that conversation.

[00:04:21.770] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And that really is shocking. I mean, yeah, it also kind of doesn't surprise me because we do put those conversations off. We convince ourselves how horrible it's going to be and we turn it into a really big thing. And I know that also with your background as a mental health first aid, a trainer, you must see a direct link between people putting off those conversations and mental health.

[00:04:44.480] - Marie Coombes
Absolutely. It's a cause and effect relationship. If you already have a mental health condition remaining in that place, where you're avoiding those conversations will make it worse. And if you don't have a condition that increases our stress, responses and stress over time can develop into a mental health condition. So, you know, tackling early, regardless of the fact that. It may give you some short term difficulties in the long term is going to be a benefit to everybody.

[00:05:11.730] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And the increase in anxiety that we get from being in that Fight-flight-freeze response with the Sympathetic nervous system triggered the whole time can have a knock on impact. So many other areas in our lives and relationships that have nothing to do with the past. And that that difficult conversation is with. So Marie, we're looking at #makinghybridwork and going back into the office potentially or potentially less. What are the kind of topics that you're seeing coming up at the moment that people are potentially avoiding having difficult conversations over?

[00:05:42.840] - Marie Coombes
So the big thing during covid has been that conversation remotely, we were talking just before about the tone of emails, that's probably been one of the biggest issues I've seen in a lot of the conversations I've seen is everybody relying on email a lot more. And we never know the tone that that email should be coming across on because we're not sat there having the conversation. So you receive an email. If it's from somebody that you're avoiding a difficult conversation with, you're already a lot higher in terms of your reaction than you would be if you told me face to face.

[00:06:16.740] - Marie Coombes
And it's it's very much about reading those emails, reading that written communication and not really understanding where it's coming from. And that's triggering a lot of a lot of difficulties between people at the moment. The other kind of things, I mean, communication in general has always been a big issue in mediation because it's the first thing to go when people have an issue with each other, whatever that issue might be, perception gaps, those gaps in perception between what one person thinks and what somebody else thinks is a recurring theme.

[00:06:46.440] - Marie Coombes
I always talk about three truths that your truth, the truth and the truth and conflict is never about the truth. It's always about understanding each other's truths. So that's another big issue. The ones I'm starting to see come through now. Menopause. We have an ageing workforce. There's a lot more women in that menopausal area in the workplace. And if you're a man, you might be sat there thinking, oh, God, not you. That doesn't affect me, but it does if you manage somebody who is going through that.

[00:07:15.210] - Marie Coombes
So that's going to be a bigger ticket issue over the next sort of three or four years, along with mental health being an increasing issue as well. We've only just touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of mental health at the moment and those people returning from furlough as well. That's I'm starting to see that being an issue because there's resentment between those of Hybrid working thinking that those sorts of home have been a home for the last 18 months when actually they've sat at home, have wanted to be at work.

[00:07:42.510] - Marie Coombes
So there's resentment in the other direction as well. So they're kind of the big things I'm seeing at the moment. And there's other things that I can see on the horizon which are really going to cause issues as well. But we'll talk about that in a minute.

[00:07:54.000] - Clare Josa
So one of the things that I'm definitely seeing with my clients is what you've just said about fellow returners is we need to be having conversations to rebuild those teams. You can't just bring people who've been furloughed back into the office or remote working and expect them to feel included. Yeah, Imposter Syndrome rates, for example, amongst furloughed workers are skyrocketing because they've been out of the organisation for potentially a year or more. They feel that everybody else has moved ahead.

[00:08:20.880] - Clare Josa
What I know. What if they realise I'm no longer good enough at my job? Similarly, we've got the people who've been on their knees potentially working 14 hours a day with the perception that the people who've been furloughed have been sat at home on holiday, whereas actually, as you say, they might have been stuck in a tiny flat with no God. We're going stir crazy wanting to be back in the office. So when we're looking at things like this, how to communicate, how to rebuild teams, to avoid conflict, to prevent resentment, what is your advice on that?

[00:08:52.830] - Clare Josa
Communicate properly, to be able to avoid that conflict and to be able to rebuild those teams.

[00:08:58.890] - Marie Coombes
So for me, it's twofold. One is the psychological side and one is the communication side. So in terms of the psychology, it's about understanding that we all have a desire to be psychologically safe and the kind of tenants and psychological safety security, having a stable job, having a stable situation, having controls autonomy is a big thing as well. Being able to control your environment, being able to control what happens to you and fairness. That's a huge thing in terms of psychological safety of people do not feel they are being treated fairly or if they feel that others around them are not being treated fairly as well, that can have a major impact on all psychological safety.

[00:09:37.560] - Marie Coombes
And what that does is it triggers the a response in terms of the communication side of things. Never, ever have a conversation. And the information always sort of say, you know what, we're not going anywhere with this conversation and that's going to take five minutes. I'll go grab a cup of tea and then we'll come back and start again. Never, ever feel like you have to force a conversation like having the proper communication, great trust and rapport.

[00:10:02.970] - Marie Coombes
It builds that connexion. Having a proper, empathic conversation builds connexion. So it's very much about finding the right time to have a conversation as well. Don't try and have a conversation five minutes away from a meeting. Find the right time to have that conversation where you can be in a safe environment, where you can be in a productive environment, and also confidentiality is a huge thing about communication. If you're talking about difficult things, you need to know that you are in a confidential environment as well.

[00:10:32.580] - Marie Coombes
It's also about listening to people, not listening to respond. How many times have we been stuck in a conflict situation? And we've been sitting there thinking, oh, God, how am I going to respond to this? Instead of actually listening to what's happening, listening to what's being said, so it's about an active listening, actively engaging in the conversation, and the final thing for me is about self-awareness. So it is very much about understanding yourself.

[00:11:00.060] - Marie Coombes
And one thing that I talk about a lot, both is mental health, first aid and also as a human being is our frame of reference. We all come from a frame of reference. We all come from a set of beliefs, values, upbringing, childhood, all those kind of things that make us who we are. And being aware of our reaction are triggers to things can have a big part of having a productive conversation with somebody as well.

[00:11:24.510] - Clare Josa
That's really, really important stuff if you see the frame, that frame of reference, that self-awareness is understanding potentially what we are projecting onto the conversation, taking that out so we can really listen to hear and it's being able to listen, to hear without getting defensive, isn't it? Because it's not really about us. If somebody got pain inside, it probably isn't us. Yeah. So taking it personally, I can imagine, would actually increase the conflict.

[00:11:50.230] - Clare Josa
And it's having that maturity and self-awareness, as you describe it, to be able to to say this isn't about me, I'm getting me out of the way and I'm open to that being a solution to this.

[00:12:00.960] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The first thing I do when I'm a mediator is I put my mediator persona on. And part of that is this isn't about me. This is about the two people in the room. This is very much about helping them rebuild. Their communication is never about you. It is always about somebody talking from a position of what they need, their underlying needs. And part of that is psychological safety.

[00:12:25.660] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And if we look at, you know, most of us have heard of Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs, there's a reason why safety and security is at the bottom of that pyramid because it is the foundation for all of our other experiences in life. We've got a great one here in the comments. Judith Glaser's work on conversational intelligence is a great read and complements what Marie's just mentioned. Listening to Connect. And I know you and I both talked about Marshall Rosenberg Non-Violent Communication.

[00:12:53.590] - Clare Josa
It's what you were just saying here is it's about that the conflict comes because we don't understand each other's needs. And I'm guessing a lot of the times that I've seen in my client what we don't actually know what our needs are, so we're not articulating them in a way that allows other people to meet them. And the job of you as a mediator or if you're training people in an organisation to be able to facilitate those conversations, is to help people really see those unmet needs that have been creating the perception of conflict.

[00:13:21.130] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. One of the one of the key things I do is I speak individually with people and we work through from the story, which is usually 20 minutes of what I like to call verbal diarrhoea, which is where everything just comes out. And as a mediator, I'm trained to spot the unmet needs. And then we talk through those to the point where the story that somebody comes in with is very, very different from what they are taking out of that meeting, into the joint meeting of a mediation, very, very different.

[00:13:53.530] - Clare Josa
You say this is such an important thing to be doing. And obviously I know most of us aren't qualified to be doing it the way you do. But if somebody is in a management position and they don't have the benefit of maritime first, then I guess for them they could still there would be huge benefit in them talking to both parties individually rather than just bringing them like two fighting dogs into the arena. And as you say, is that that vomit of I need my story to be heard.

[00:14:19.090] - Clare Josa
Nobody's listen to me unconditionally on this before I need to get it out, because until somebody has been heard, they're not going to let go of the story. Then, as you say, being able to understand what are the needs that meant the story was created and is being fed. And then that's the point at which you mediate from and when you've heard the story without engaging in the drama of it, then the person feels they've been heard and they can let go of some of the emotional attachment if I guess then the mediation or the discussion is much more likely to be successful, Marie.

[00:14:53.440] - Marie Coombes
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But the joint meeting always starts with something called uninterrupted speaking time, which is an opportunity to speak and be heard, because, as I say, we're always listening to respond rather than listening to hear. So people are effectively in the nicest possible way forced to listen. Yeah, that is a real golden moment in a mediation because you do you see that realisation? Oh, my God, I didn't realise. I don't know.

[00:15:19.660] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, I often.

[00:15:21.640] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And if you're leading that discussion, whether it's somebody like you, Maria, or whether it's a line manager or somebody in an H.R. team, what's really important, I guess, is to make sure that when somebody has that realisation, it doesn't then cause them to shut down with the guilt and the shame of I can't believe I did that. Therefore, I'm an awful person. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's happened. We're going to deal with it.

[00:15:43.180] - Clare Josa
You move on. Absolutely. Absolutely. So one of the big challenges I'm hearing from my audience and from my clients is having those conversations. Output's Yeah. Is being able to raise difficult conversations with your line manager, your direct your managing partner or even the CEO. And I was working with a client just yesterday where her difficult conversation to say no to meetings. Yeah, she's just been promoted into a global role. She now has seven hours a day of back to back meetings, wakes up first thing in the morning.

[00:16:15.640] - Clare Josa
The first thing she thinks is what work will I get done tonight? Yeah. Yeah, this kind of thing is becoming increasingly common. Leading to mental health issues and burnout, productivity issues, performance issues, team problems, absenteeism, what would your advice be for those of us who need to raise that difficult topic with our line manager, where there might not be somebody there to facilitate to have that courage to be able to have that conversation and not be the statistic that's put it off for two years and then leaves the company because they didn't want to raise the conversation.

[00:16:51.870] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, absolutely. So my first thing would be tackle it early. Something will only get bigger if it's not talked about. So regardless of whether it's upwards, downwards, left or right, tackle it early, don't allow it to fester, because that's when a difficult conversation becomes an impossible conversation. And all of a sudden, it's two years later, there's something within the complex splits, vehicle conflict styles and sometimes understanding what your style of dealing with conflict is can support how you have that conversation.

[00:17:25.560] - Marie Coombes
So I will say conflict probably not like this conflict is inevitable. It's whether it's constructive or destructive. That is the key point here. OK, the reason why we talk about constructive and destructive conflict is because we all come from that frame of reference. So it's about how we react, not necessarily what the actual issue is, that's quite often the difference between constructive and destructive conflict. So having an understanding of that or the person's conflict style, whether they are a shark, which is kind of like the fight response, whether they're a teddy bear, which is the fawning response or whether they're a collaborator, that can help you prepare for that conversation and prepare your style to match their style.

[00:18:08.690] - Marie Coombes
OK, because what you're doing then is you're appealing to that underlying needs. It is about understanding their needs and goals as well. So what is their life like? What is their work life like? Is what you're going to talk to them about going to make things more difficult or more easy, understanding how that's going to impact on their needs and goals and then understanding then how they may react to it. And it is about respect and empathy as well.

[00:18:33.650] - Marie Coombes
Brene Brown talks about empathy, building connexion. And it's also one of those where an empathic conversation is never one that starts with at least. So it's all about having the right level of empathy and having respect for each other's time as well. I mentioned earlier on about picking the right time to have a conversation. It's exactly the same. Managing opposite is managing down to a certain extent. It's picking the right time and then being mindful of each other's time because we're all busy.

[00:19:02.730] - Marie Coombes
Every single one of us is busy. But what we can do by having the conversation early is we can save a bigger amount of time later on. So it's that short term pain for long term gain.

[00:19:15.350] - Clare Josa
This is brilliant. And I love that whole thing about the two types of conflict and how actually it's about how we experience and process it rather than the actual topic. I'd love to hear from those of you who are alive with this chat. What are your thoughts on that, on those two types of conflict and the role that we play in it? And Marie, building on something that you said earlier about that kind of 20 minutes of vomit, but getting it out there that people need to have that verbal diarrhoea.

[00:19:42.740] - Clare Josa
What would you I mean, I'm thinking and I could be wrong. I'm not media trainer, but I'm wondering if you need to have that difficult conversation with your boss, whether it's worth finding somebody who's a trusted friend that you could have that verbal diarrhoea with before you go into the meeting with the boss. So when you go into the meeting with the boss, you've got the emotions out of it. What would your thoughts be on that?

[00:20:02.330] - Marie Coombes
I personally would would probably recommend that. I mean, I'm a big one for having mentors. I'm a big one for having somebody is there as a coaching relationship. So definitely that if I had to have a difficult conversation, I would always and I've still got a mentor now. I would always go to my mentor first and say, look, this is what I'm dealing with. I'm not quite sure how to deal with it. This is this is everything that is going on.

[00:20:25.970] - Marie Coombes
And then we would have that conversation so I can distil down. To be fair, I naturally distil now and naturally go for my unmet need first because I recognise it straight away. But obviously if you if you're not trained in that skill, you will probably need somebody to help you having that conversation, taking time to plan the conversation and that will be part of that plan.

[00:20:45.650] - Clare Josa
And that's brilliant. And what you're saying about, you know, you've got the stage where you can now just say, oh, is this need that's creating that particular story? You know, I talk about Mind-story drama how so much the pain we experience is actually the what you feel that we're doing in our heads. And most of us don't even realise we're doing that and that it becomes our truth. Yeah, it is that drama story. But what if he does this or she says that suddenly we forget that was just an imagination?

[00:21:15.360] - Clare Josa
Yeah, I remember a situation once where I had a dream that my husband had behaved very unreasonable. And I woke up that morning and I was really cross with him for about two hours. And I couldn't shift the whole thing because the mind-story drama in the dream had been so real. I'd created the neural pathways that my brain forgot because there was such emotion with it. My brain forgot it had never actually happened. Yeah, so I really think, yeah, having this coach, this mentor figure, somebody you trust who isn't going to sit there and wind you up because we get physiologically addicted at a cellular level to the adrenaline and the court is all those stress hormones created by the mind-story drama.

[00:21:55.520] - Clare Josa
So do not have your pre-chat with somebody who's just going to help you to ease your way back up. It needs to be somebody who can do the unconditional listening. But I guess we don't. It's the individual also need to be open to letting go of the mind-story drama if we actually want to to ease that conflict.

[00:22:12.980] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because we cannot have those difficult conversations if we are personally stuck in that drama. It's like I said earlier, I'll never have a conversation, a difficult conversation in the height of emotion. Just take five minutes out to just go and censor yourself and then come back and start again.

[00:22:30.950] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And definitely I love your advice, but don't have it five minutes before you walk into a big meeting. You have people that do, though. I'm just saying that with it.

[00:22:42.200] - Clare Josa
Yeah. And also, I think it's fair to to brief the person that actually I do want to talk to you about this topic, and I've been finding it quite difficult because the last thing you want is them thinking that you're just doing a catch up date and then suddenly to be splattered with a set of needs that they've got no idea even existed.

[00:23:01.280] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's about making time, making time.

[00:23:07.070] - Clare Josa
And and us being the adults in that situation is owning our reaction to the situation and being genuinely open to that being an amicable solution rather than somebody needing to win and somebody else needing to lose. And that can be quite hard if the person's behaviour has been quite unacceptable.

[00:23:25.520] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the things I always encourage in those mediation style conversations, whether I do it one on one or whether I do it in a group setting, is speak from the I. Use I statements, I feel like this. I take ownership because that's one of the things we don't do in conflict, we immediately go to that blame place. We immediately try to blame somebody else. And it's not a it's not an issue in the sense of, you know, we all do it.

[00:23:53.690] - Marie Coombes
It's just the way we naturally sort of gravitate to. But it's about taking ownership of all them for what's going on.

[00:24:01.880] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. So we got some great comments here, it's like, yep, I recommend clients to practise, not to have a script, but to deal with the emotion before having the conversation for real. Absolutely. Might even practise it a few times. I write down the topics I want to talk to, talk through and keep those topics. And it's so important for us to to be able to be in that space where we say we move away from the blame.

[00:24:27.890] - Clare Josa
Yeah, that famous Eleanor Roosevelt quote, If nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent, it's a real rotten tomatoes moment for the word inferior, for whatever the emotion is we're feeling. Unfortunately, it's actually true. And if we're in a conflict situation, the other person might not even realise they're in a conflict situation. They might be blissfully unaware of the story and the pain that's going on inside for us. And we need to make sure we don't speak from the pain.

[00:24:54.050] - Clare Josa
We speak from that grounded sense of I'm taking responsibility for how I feel in this, but I do need you to understand my needs.

[00:25:02.690] - Marie Coombes
Yeah, definitely. And it's funny you should say that, because the amount of mediations I've done where one person has this 20 minutes of everything and the other person's "I don't know why I'm here". I've lost count of how many times that has happened. And then by the time we get to the joint meetings, it's like, "Ahh!"

[00:25:20.870] - Clare Josa
It's surreal, isn't it? And we can really find ourselves up about other people's behaviour without them having any idea whatsoever. And it doesn't mean it's OK.

[00:25:31.610] - Marie Coombes
But we're all having a different experience at the same practical scenario.

[00:25:36.360] - Marie Coombes
Absolutely. That frame of reference.

[00:25:38.960] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. So that's been really great advice. Anyway, so the next big topic, this is something you and I discussed the other day, that you see that we need to actually start having open conversations about now in the workplace. I'd love to hear from you on that.

[00:25:53.990] - Marie Coombes
Yeah. So the big ones that are coming through at the moment, there's two in particular. It's that return to work, the hybrid working. And the biggest thing that's going to cause conflict there is having those conversations. So one of the tenets of Psychological safety is fairness. So if you're having conversations with people about Hybrid working is about making sure those conversations are fair to everybody and understanding that some people are going to have greater needs and others. So some people are still shielding, some people still classed as vulnerable.

[00:26:21.680] - Marie Coombes
They're not going to want to be in the workplace, but they're also not going to want to be excluded or facing 20 questions as to why they're working from home five days a week, whereas everybody else has to be in three days a week or whatever, so that Hybrid working has the real potential to generate a lot of destructive conflict, a lot of destructive conflicts. The other one, and I think this is going to be even bigger, is the vaccine versus no vaccine conversation.

[00:26:46.430] - Marie Coombes
Now, I'm not going to get into to the merits of which ones. Right. In which one went wrong. The key issue here is that some people out there do not have a choice in terms of not being able to have the vaccination. So I have family members. I know Claire, we talked about this the other day, but can't have it for medical reasons. It's going to cause bigger problems than actually having probably covered would do so.

[00:27:07.520] - Marie Coombes
So in those situations, it's about having the empathy for those people and understanding that everybody makes a decision as to as to why they're living their life the way they are. We all should take responsibility for that decision, but it's appreciating that not everybody can make that decision. Some people have no choice.

[00:27:26.180] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And I'm definitely seeing this as something that's going to come up as a hot topic. I'm totally with you on this summary is because there's been so much fear built up, particularly on social media and in the mainstream media, about vaccinated versus unvaccinated. It becomes such an immensely emotionally charged topic. And because it's coming from that place of fear, it's already triggered the Fight-flight-freeze-fawn mechanism. And I've already started hearing conversations of I won't be in an office with somebody who's unvaccinated because they might kill me.

[00:27:56.720] - Clare Josa
And I think we need as managers, as leaders to actually be managing that discussion now, saying, actually, here are the facts. Here's what we're doing to keep everybody safe. If you've been vaccinated, here's the stats on how safe you are. And actually, you know what, right. Does anybody have to know somebody else's medical history in the workplace? We need to be having I don't have the answers. Like you don't have the answers, but it needs to be something that's discussed in an organisation rather than imposed.

[00:28:27.230] - Clare Josa
And it's something that people need to feel safe talking about because there will be so much fear built up around the story that's in their head, because people have been through massive fear in the last fifteen months. If this gets projected into a workplace, you can imagine everybody. You can imagine how destructive that will be suppressed in a workplace. You can imagine how somebody who, for whatever reason, has not been vaccinated is going to end up being ostracised or bullied or harassed or excluded or forced to work from home when actually.

[00:29:00.830] - Clare Josa
They are desperate to be back in the office because they hate having to sit on their bed to work with their dressing gown in the background. Yeah, so there is no right and wrong on this. And it's really important for us to be having those challenging, courageous conversations now so that people feel safe. It's that psychological security again, isn't it, Marie?

[00:29:21.150] - Marie Coombes
It absolutely is. I mean, right. The bottom line is it's the word safe that we have to feel safe before we can move off that hierarchy of needs. And that's that's one of the essential tenets of Islam. And the last 18 months, we haven't been safe. I don't think any one of us has felt safe for the last 18 months. We turn into the workplace. I'm very lucky. I work from home, full stop. I'm self-employed.

[00:29:43.370] - Marie Coombes
I don't have to go into an office and work with people. But I have clients are expecting me to go into the workplace and I'm having to ask for risk assessments and make sure that everything is the same as the health and the normal health and safety in the workplace is important. This forms part of that for me. So it's about making sure I am safe and everybody needs to take responsibility for their own safety. But at the same time, organisations need to, as part of the psychological contract, as part of the Health and Safety at Work Act is part of all these are the things that underpin is making sure that people are safe at work and covid falls under that.

[00:30:17.750] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And there are two levels to that safety aren't there, Marie. You've got the. Yeah, we've done the risk assessment. Here's the written document, if I will say that Psychological safety. And now we're going to discuss it. We're not just going to email that document round. We're actually going to talk about it, why it's got what it has in it and how how if somebody got concerns, how they can easily raise those without feeling judged, which I decide on whichever fence they are.

[00:30:41.990] - Clare Josa
Yeah. So, Marie, before we wrap up, I just want to hear from the group with us live. If you've got anything else that you'd like to ask Marie or anything that's been a light bulb for you today in this session, let me know via the chat. Emori, how can people get in touch with you? Because you and I have talked about how sometimes we think mediation doesn't happen until you hit, like, serious kind of court level conflict.

[00:31:05.690] - Clare Josa
And actually, the best time to bring you in is so much earlier in the process. How does that work for an organisation?

[00:31:14.510] - Marie Coombes
So there's still several ways to contact me. I have my website and my my details and my QR codes there as well, which will direct you to sort of getting in touch with me. But I'm one of those I I'm very much about. Prevention is better than cure. Understanding how to not avoid conflict because it's a conflict is inevitable, but how to make it constructive because constructive conflict, it drives innovation. It drives creativity. It drives engagement because people are allowed to speak and be heard as well.

[00:31:47.210] - Marie Coombes
So it is very, very much about encouraging people to speak up, but creating the environment. And that's the biggest thing that I can help organisations do, is create help them create that environment for constructive conflict, for constructive dialogue, for making sure that everybody feels heard and supported. But I am also there when things do go wrong and that extra level of support as well as on the whole process, that that's fantastic.

[00:32:12.920] - Clare Josa
We've got some lovely feedback by the comments from those who've been here live. Going to read more about conflict styles, apps. Love listening to you, Marie, on such an interesting topic of conflict and difficult conversations. I'm going to think about how it might be useful to help people increase their self awareness and help more constructive conversations. So Marie, people can find you over on LinkedIn. They can find you a wee WeRestoreCalm.com. And also you do offer half hour consultations to organisations as well, don't you?

[00:32:41.600] - Clare Josa
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So get in touch with Marie if you think this is something that your organisation needs to learn from or that your managers might benefit from some training in this, which right now, given the level of difficult conversations we're all going to be having, is essential because simply imposing decisions on people is the best way to make sure they leave. Then please do get in touch with Marie and Marie. If you could just wrap up by sharing that one thing that maybe you wish you'd known back at the very beginning of your career before you started out as a mediator on how to have these conversations, what would it be?

[00:33:17.800] - Marie Coombes
It's not personal. That's probably the biggest thing, because the amount of times I didn't speak up for fear of thinking that it was going to be a personal attack on somebody else or reacting in such a way when somebody brought up something with me, I'm one of those that in the past, if somebody criticised me for something, whether it was done correctly or incorrectly, I always went straight to the defensive. And now I appreciate is very much about it's not personal.

[00:33:45.630] - Marie Coombes
It's just about getting stuff out there, getting stuff in the open and being able to move on constructively.

[00:33:51.390] - Clare Josa
I think that is possibly one of the best bits of advice for life if it's not personal. It's such brilliant advice. Marie, thank you so much. It's been wonderful talking to you today. Thank you so much for taking the time. And everyone, you can find Marie and find out more about her work at WeRestoreCalm.com.

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Creativity & Innovation With Hybrid Working: Interview With Sue Phillips

Sue Phillips knows her stuff when it comes to creativity and innovation. As Ipsos MORI's Global Head For Insight, she has needed to lead teams, worldwide, during the pandemic to keep innovating and making a difference for their clients.

In this inspirational interview, Sue shares what she has learned about consciously creating innovation in remote meetings, how to design your organisation's hybrid working framework, and how to avoid FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) making your star performers leave:

Creativity & Innovation With Hybrid Working

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What We Cover In This Interview:

What have you and your teams learned about fostering creativity and innovation during pandemic remote working and how will you be running that with hybrid working?
What is your advice for handling hybrid meetings, with some people in the room and some not?
How can we be making the most of our time in the office together? (i.e. not just schlepping the laptop into the office to do what we could have done at home)
How do we make sure that hybrid working is fair and doesn’t discriminate against any particular group, e.g. working mothers of school-aged children?
"You can't build a team on Zoom" - what can we be doing instead?

Sue Phillips is Global Head Of Insight for Ipsos MORI and leads their Women's Network.

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[00:00:08.740] - Clare Josa
Good morning, hello, thank you for taking the time today. I am thrilled to introduce Sue Phillips from Ipsos Mori. She is an absolute powerhouse when it comes to creativity and innovation. She's global head of Insight's Ipsos Mori. She's an absolute specialist in the creativity and innovation and how we've had to adapt this with hybrid work. She's also the lead of the women in Ipsos, so she's absolutely passionate about making sure that everybody's included and nobody misses out. However, we are working.

[00:00:41.500] - Clare Josa
So, Sue, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:00:45.280] - Sue Phillips
Thank you very much for having me on. It's great to be here with you to see what we going to talk about today, as you're aware, is creativity and innovation and also how to avoid fome. Now, I know that you've had to do an awful lot of work with your teams to be able to still generate the insights that customers need. So your customers being major organisations rather than members of the public and the research that you provide helps these huge organisations to make really important decisions.

[00:01:12.850] - Sue Phillips
And I know that with what's happened with lockdown in the pandemic, a lot of your clients have had to make really big decisions that they want to be backed by research. The classic ways we used to do research have not always been working. We've had to rewrite the rulebook on that. So you've really had to lead your teams through how can we work together in a remote environment and still be creative? And with the work you're doing, Ipsos Mori innovation is absolutely key.

[00:01:41.890] - Sue Phillips
So could we start with that? Is what have you and your teams learnt about fostering creativity and innovation despite remote working and despite the challenges we face through being in the middle of a pandemic?

[00:01:53.920] - Sue Phillips
Yes, absolutely. So, yes, we were the situation in February 2020 where 80 percent of 80 percent by what was face to face and so on, then we no longer had that as an option. And it wasn't just to do with how we worked as a team, as this group of people, because obviously everyone had to work from home. But it was also about the engagement with consumers who were actually trying to understand. So I think so.

[00:02:22.740] - Sue Phillips
A couple of things. The first thing with the with the remote working and the remote team working is that we're here. We were stuck with this team thing. And you can automatically bring that culture of sitting in a meeting, doing the same kind of thing, talking, you know, and over each other, et cetera. And we brought and we just realised very quickly that was not going to work. You know, you can't work in the same way.

[00:02:50.670] - Sue Phillips
And the other big part of our work was also running workshops. I mean, you also run workshops like Clare and and we found that again, sitting there watching somebody present something for half an hour and then, you know, expecting some full engagement again, just didn't work. So we learnt very quickly through trial and error. This this was that we have to behave differently given the environment. And so we embraced the technology. So everyone comments and criticises and, you know, bemoans the fatigue and the team, the teams, this and that.

[00:03:27.450] - Sue Phillips
And it is a pain. You know, it is because you spend so much time on it. But unless you embrace what it can do and work with it creatively, then actually, you know, then you don't get anywhere. So that was so. So then then it's about thinking differently about how you work together. So we all used to do these kind of Zuman team calls beforehand because people were, you know, sometimes working the odd Friday at home and they would be the school, etc.

[00:03:57.030] - Sue Phillips
And so nobody would ever have their cameras on. And I'm seeing that creep back now. Actually, I'm seeing creeping back after a year of zoo people sort of turning the cameras off, not being there. But unless you're present and last week, you know, like we're looking at each other now, you know, that doesn't actually work. So it'd be lovely to see Justin's beautiful face and then a beautiful face to face, a beautiful face. But you do lose a huge amount without that contact.

[00:04:25.360] - Sue Phillips
So that's how I felt. I was looking at, first of all, camera straight on we in terms of just actually engaging during a session. We would over the course of the year, we started to use more and more virtual whiteboard type things. So so you would rather than sitting there having to exchange things, you know, like or you look at this PowerPoint, then we'll comment on it. Somebody else look at this PowerPoint and will comment on it.

[00:04:54.720] - Sue Phillips
And we would we have this virtual, you know, literally whiteboard with lots of posts on it where we can get into small groups, breakouts, work, work through an idea, just as we would do if we were face to face. And that, again, you know, I was working some tech guys just in the middle of last year, about this time last year, actually. And they were working for you know, they were working for Google and Facebook.

[00:05:20.520] - Sue Phillips
And actually, when I went into this workshop, I was really quite intimidating. These guys will be doing so well. And but, you know, no, we just we just ran the session with a really good pace. You never spent any longer than ten minutes doing any one thing, variety of breakout groups working on this sort of mural board with, you know, joint activities that they were doing together, coming back, feeding back one team.

[00:05:46.380] - Sue Phillips
Tell me what you think group to team. Tell me what you think. So there's all these little techniques that you can do to make sure that you keep people engaged during the session because this is all you've got. You know, you've just got this screen. You just got these people. And it's actually quite it can be very limiting unless you actually, you know, make it work. So there's something.

[00:06:09.540] - Clare Josa
Absolutely, Jane. As you say, what we used to do in person doesn't translate to Zoom. We need to use new ways. And I know, as you said, I do a lot of workshops. The work I do as a keynote speaker, what I do online is quite different. You know, the energy that you have to bring to a phone call is very different to the energy that you have on a stage. For example, one of the key things that in a room we're using each other's energy.

[00:06:31.920] - Clare Josa
We're building that excitement, that momentum. When you're on Zoom, you have to try and raise everybody's energy. And whoever is facilitating that needs to do it. You can do it through space, as you say. You can do it through using tools. I know that people are going to ask me what is the tool that you're using for the whiteboard and the posters?

[00:06:49.860] - Sue Phillips
So we using neural Ammu are also neural is the company went through six months of compliance to get there, but we got it from the company and we have to do that. So but we're delighted with muralists. It's a very, very flexible and has lots and lots of templates already set up. So if you're not a creative person not knowing how to set up something like that and they have a they have a lot of already. Templates and you literally just click on, you know, you can easily get people in, you can they can easily just double click and there's a Post-it magically on the on the page and they can start writing on it.

[00:07:26.580] - Sue Phillips
And so so even the least techies do it. And we do have quite a few and they do tend to be the most senior and people in our organisation. And if they initially did struggle with it, but after a couple of sessions and also a little peer pressure of people say, oh, come on, you can do this, I can do this, I can do this, you know, but that that was actually what helped because, again, any new behaviour is always a challenge.

[00:07:53.790] - Sue Phillips
People will always resist it. So we are in the 21st century now. And these kind of tools just you just need to start embracing them. I think Nierop is another one and because of other platforms are available and I already know is available. And there's also a team's whiteboard as well. And I don't use them a lot, but I think it probably has something similar. So.

[00:08:15.430] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. So and for those of you who are with us live, I'd love to hear from you via the chat. Looking back over the last 15 to 18 months, whenever you've been on a team or zone call and it's been something that's really made you feel like you were drawn in, like your voice mattered. How did people do that? What were the strategies that people have used to make you think? Yeah, I'm actually here and I'm present and I'm engaged.

[00:08:38.640] - Sue Phillips
So, yes, I want to hear from people via the chat on that and say, what are some of your favourites? You've mentioned changing the topic every ten minutes and that kind of thing.

[00:08:48.120] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, yeah. So so to me, you never have they have the second chance to make a first impression. So to me it's all about how you set up the meeting and how you set up the session. So as soon as people come in on my screen, I say, please put em in the chat box, please say hello where you're based. So I want to know which city people are in because people can be in different countries, different cities, whatever.

[00:09:14.550] - Sue Phillips
And then I'll always ask them to write in an answer to a question. My favourite one is, what are you wearing on your feet? Because you know that usually wearing nothing on their feet or slippers or flip flops or bare feet like me today, or I'll say, you know, what did you have for breakfast? What did you have for lunch? And depending what time it was, I might also ask them, what's your superpower? You know, again, you're kind of, you know, just sort of stretching it a little bit.

[00:09:38.430] - Sue Phillips
But it might be something that just makes everyone feel, oh, I'm here and it's easy. But what are you then do when I when I sort of putting in I'm having muesli. I'm having just coffee for me. You can start to almost engage a flow of conversation where you start to comment on, oh, aren't we all healthy here? Or you get a prise for the most healthy breakfast or the most creative lunch, the most exotic Waitrose quinoa salad will come up, you know, so so you can create a fun set up to the session, which relaxes people.

[00:10:15.030] - Sue Phillips
But the secondary benefit of that is you. I'm talking with you. I'm looking at, you know, Christina and Justin and Lynn. And I'm thinking that they are here and I have a, you know, a sort of rapport with them commenting on their breakfast or their shoes or whatever. And so that's that takes very little time. But it's it's very impactful on getting them just going. And then, of course, if you've got thirty or forty people just dialling in, you see if you do that with as many people as you've got, if you have got thirty or forty people going, you just can't do a proper intro.

[00:10:51.030] - Sue Phillips
So then I might do something like, OK, so let's all turn our cameras off or turn our cameras off and then turn your camera on. If you've been to Paris, turn your camera on if you have on a mouth and turn your camera on if blah. And then then you say, oh, if you have got your camera off, turn your camera on. Right. So we turn our cameras on when we speak and this is how we engage with each other.

[00:11:14.880] - Sue Phillips
So you then to set the rules of the tone of the session because otherwise people just revert to, oh God, I'm not feeling like I'm the camera on today's I won't bother you.

[00:11:26.580] - Clare Josa
And then they're doing the emails and everything else again.

[00:11:28.770] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, exactly. And yes. So in a way, they shouldn't be there. You know, if they're not going to participate in the meeting, if there's no role for them to be there, then they'll be more choiceful about being there.

[00:11:44.010] - Clare Josa
That's brilliant, too. So what you're doing with that is you are raising the energy by getting that discussion going just like we would do in a face to face meeting. Yes. And hovering outside the meeting room waiting for the previous meeting over and finish. Yeah. We'd be sitting there chatting, also teaching them. These are the rules of how this session is going to work. You're going to have your video on and you're going to interact. And I love your cue.

[00:12:04.320] - Clare Josa
And I think that because if we start zoom more teams up to high on video participants, you can instantly see who's answering those questions, which works really well with the big group. Yeah, and it's giving everybody. A mission to have an opinion, so it's a very clever psychological way of saying this is our space and this is how we're going to use it. I love that.

[00:12:22.580] - Sue Phillips
Say, this is how I wanted to engage. Yeah. If, you know, if you're not engaging, you're not here, you know. And so there there becomes a kind of compulsion. But I've got to say something. A little something.

[00:12:33.960] - Clare Josa
Exactly. It gets people over that inhibition of, oh, I don't want my video on and I've got a million things to do. It's like, OK, right. So has made it really clear I'm actually here. Fine. I'm making a commitment, not decision. Yeah. And I know of something else that you're passionate about with this for creativity and innovation. And you touched on it briefly in your answer. There it is having this intentionality behind the meeting.

[00:12:55.160] - Clare Josa
It's not just yet another team meeting. This is actually a destination event, isn't it, when you want to actually get these answers out. So you're really making it clear to people this isn't just another update. You know, this is actually something where we're imagining we've flown in from all over the world to be in a room together to create. Yeah, yes.

[00:13:13.520] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's about having a clear purpose. I don't know if you knew I knew this, but I only found this out recently. But Jeff Bezos of Amazon, he's obviously relatively successful. He he doesn't do anything in PowerPoint. It's all has to be in words. And he has a memo before every meeting, which is clear, outlines what we're going to do, what the purpose of the meeting is. We're going to discuss what the information requirements are beforehand and etc.

[00:13:41.540] - Sue Phillips
. And so what that does is makes it very clear for obviously anyone attending what should be there. And but I also think why do we have catch up meetings, as are just meetings to status updates? I mean, once, you know, you can look at you can look at an Excel spreadsheet or you can look at a map to find out what the status is, is what you want to do as a result of knowing that status of same thing.

[00:14:06.620] - Sue Phillips
So let's look at everyone, look at the status beforehand and and then come to the meeting to discuss what we want to do as a result. And I think people always sort of have this this thing about auto work, what a pain, what a pain. But if you reframe your meeting and say, actually, the meeting will be for 45 minutes, but there'll be forty five minutes work to do in order to prepare for the meeting. And so you need to send that pre work.

[00:14:34.670] - Sue Phillips
And so, so almost send an invite for the pre work that they do alone. They can choose the time they have to do it at the same time, but that there's a 45 minute framework and then 45 minutes in the meeting discussion, then then you get more value out of that session.

[00:14:50.360] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. I've got some direct comments coming through to me, so some direct messages here in the chat as well. So could you please come and run the meetings at my company?

[00:14:58.340] - Sue Phillips
Oh, thank you. Well, yes, maybe I'm getting people going. I start with one sentence sharing a quick win from the week. Yeah. Then a specific short topics and mixing the groups up each week. This is brilliant. Yeah. And we can either be deliberate and intentional about how we put people together for brainstorming or we can use the power of Zuma, for example, to randomly allocate, which is helping us to reproduce those watercoolers.

[00:15:26.990] - Sue Phillips
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's interesting because I love the teams do the same thing. I love that sort of you know, you feel like you in Harry Potter teleported to this group of people who don't. It's going to be we often do is we don't give people time to do the do have water cooler chat. We said, OK, you've got ten minutes to do this task and you to fill this out and come back and be ready to share.

[00:15:50.090] - Sue Phillips
And of course, people don't know each other. They always have to have the kind of OK, so take five minutes just to introduce each other, get familiar with the task and then ten minutes to get on with the task. Again, very simple thing, but they just send people out and not expect that they will have to do some of that gelling. And we will say about this this new world and how we've missed the watercooler conversations. It's actually the time that we spend doing it.

[00:16:17.960] - Sue Phillips
I went into the office last week. They hardly got any work done because I was in, you know, chatting to someone here. Someone put my my desk like, how am I going to get this done? So, you know, we've often because you can you do so you do fill your calendar from time to with everything. But in those meetings, spend the time on those watercooler chats, conversations. How's the cat? How's the dog?

[00:16:42.650] - Sue Phillips
You know, how are the kids? Because that's that's obviously such an important part of our lives that if you go straight into the meeting, you're like everything gets so dry.

[00:16:53.240] - Clare Josa
So absolutely. It's those human connexions. And what I love about what you're describing here. So you're you're consciously creating a safe space for people to be creative and innovative. Yeah, yeah. We're we're strangers. Then it's a neuroscience fact that we're going to be in fight flight freeze mode if we share prices. Yeah. We're less likely to then actually be able to access that part of the brain and it. Will stifle creativity and innovation if we just spend that five minutes doing the bit, the human bit.

[00:17:20.540] - Sue Phillips
Yes. Yeah, I like this and I trust this person, I'm going to be hard to work with this person. This person isn't going to judge me. Right. Let's get on.

[00:17:28.100] - Clare Josa
Exactly. Exactly. And without that, what we're going to get is maybe the 30 percent ideas instead of the 80 percent idea. Yeah, yeah. That's not such good advice. So everybody here live. I'd love to hear from you via the chat and you can send it to me if you'd rather not chat in front of everybody is what could you do? Is your organisation already doing this or what could you do in your team to implement that five minutes of human connexion before you dive in and break out rooms or meetings, the small chat that actually can go really deep.

[00:17:58.310] - Clare Josa
You know, for me as an introvert, I actually really hate chit chat because I want to get straight in there. It's like, oh, my goodness, that happened to you. How are you? What can I do to support you? I'm not interested in whether I am today. Obviously, I'm going to be working out so much today in the sun. But that connexion is really important, being able to to be that on camera, eyeball to eyeball, seeing everybody who's in your little group.

[00:18:20.700] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:22.370] - Clare Josa
We're all here together. Let's create a safe space.

[00:18:25.100] - Sue Phillips
Yeah. Yeah. A nice a nice one. Warm up for that is because again the safe space but a positive space. So you want people to be positive and forward moving in the way they're talking. So I would say something like this to, you know, get to know each other, but it's to share one of your covid silver linings because it's been a grim year. But you know, what's one of those silver linings? And everyone has a silver lining and then that reveals something about themselves.

[00:18:50.820] - Sue Phillips
OK, and for me, it's exercise. For somebody else, it's more time with the family or whatever. And then as you forward experience, I'm going to hand this straight back over to those who are with us live. Or if you're on the replay, you can let me know by the comments. OK, what has been one of your covid silver linings? Let's put it straight into action and practise it now. I came for your next movie, Silver Linings.

[00:19:13.310] - Sue Phillips
I'm going to put mine in as well.

[00:19:15.350] - Clare Josa
And I think that one of my covid silver linings is outside of the home schooling arena. The kids are back at school. I love the fact there's been more snow. Yeah. And I've loved the fact that I don't have the same wrap around child care I used to have. And it hasn't mattered. I can still pick my kids up from school, make sure that they've got through the hungry snacks space and do whatever I need to do to wrap up my day.

[00:19:38.600] - Clare Josa
And I feel like I'm a lot more present for them. And it's been a really big silver lining for me. And I've, quite frankly, loved the fact most of the time that my husband's been around up in London. It's time and we felt like a team. Yeah. So employers realising that working remotely is possible. Absolutely. From Suheir being able to exercise every day in the week. Absolutely. Direct message I've got here is being able to spend more time with my mom who's got responsibilities.

[00:20:11.660] - Clare Josa
That's beautiful this day. Moving on to our next topic, if I may say, being able to meet people all over the world.

[00:20:19.040] - Sue Phillips
It's great. Yes.

[00:20:20.270] - Clare Josa
You not having to travel quite as much as I like to read too much. Yes. Living out of that suitcase. This may be one of the other things that you and I have talked about before I know you're passionate about is when we've got hybrid teams that are going to be situations where some people want to be in the office all the time because that suits how they're wired and how their life is constructed. All the people are going to resist going to the office completely because frankly, they've run their team or been in their team for fifteen months, delivered all the objectives.

[00:20:53.000] - Clare Josa
Why do I have to now commute? Probably prevent a two tier workforce, the in the office, top of mind, getting the next promotion, going out for drinks, having a fantastic social life and team network and the people who are in the office much less often who might feel overlooked. You might feel that they're missing out this fear of missing out somo the base, that they don't feel they have to go back into the office even though they might not want to or feel safe doing so.

[00:21:20.060] - Clare Josa
Yeah. What are your suggestions for how we can prevent and stop that division within teams?

[00:21:26.120] - Sue Phillips
Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a massive it's a massive challenge. The whole hybrid's going back to work. And I think it was interesting what Analisa said there, that the big taboo of remote working, you know, working from home, but remote working again, it's about framings. You're working from home at home. So there's that question mark over it. So that's all been busted. Now that to be as best we could be productive, we can work from home, but we've so so we've also, I think, realise how productive we can be when we're working from home.

[00:21:57.440] - Sue Phillips
So there's, you know, without any distractions, I can sit here and I can really focus and I can get a report written and or get that document strategy written or whatever it is. And but we also realise that you consume the fatigue. You your your world. I don't know if everyone's well, but my world certainly has become. Not just geographically, obviously has, but just from what I'm being touched by and what I'm absorbing, even just going on the train and the tube, you see all these ads on the train and you just feel like, you know what's going on, even if it's just seeing people and what they're wearing.

[00:22:34.450] - Sue Phillips
And so you realise the world has become smaller and your and your ability to know what is going on across a large organisation has also become smaller. So all that's context to say working from home has been extremely effective and productive, but that is beyond the watercooler that you're missing. So I think companies need to think about, you know, take a step back and think about what are we trying to achieve here as opposed to just sort of setting down rules that come in three days a week whenever you want.

[00:23:08.350] - Sue Phillips
And let's see how it works, as we as we said earlier on. So so the starting point in most companies will be some kind of consultation, because whatever works for everyone, whatever what someone won't work for everyone. And it will depend on what your job is, what team needs to be in order for your company to work. And and so, unfortunately, the people who, you know, don't want to commute anymore and want to work from home all the time might be disappointed because actually what he means and what's actually having an effective work environment means might mean you do have to have some presentism at some point you need to be with with you, with the team, etc.

[00:23:57.160] - Sue Phillips
. That said, I'm a huge fan of the being able to work from a remote place, whether it's your home or your holiday home or whatever, because you can do it extremely effectively. So when it comes to things like the FAMO, I think within the office we've all been we were all there before the pandemic where you'd be sitting in a room, in a meeting room, and there'd be three people who'd be dialling in and they'd never get a look in the conversation because all the people in the room and they were all chatting about.

[00:24:31.990] - Sue Phillips
So just as we've had to adopt new disciplines for the way we work with our and our teams, as I was describing before, I think meetings will have to take a new role and you can adopt some of those things that you did in the meeting, in the zoo meetings, in the face to face meeting, and whether that is more turn taking, whether that is, you know, tied to agendas, why are we meeting in the first place?

[00:24:56.080] - Sue Phillips
So I'm talking about meetings before I talk about the social stuff. But why are we meeting in the first place? Who needs to be here? Oh, three people are going to be in the office. Three people are not going to be in the office. Great. If you've got really wonderful tech that helps you do that brilliantly. But most people, it will be a screen on the wall or even worse, you know, just sitting around as if you're all in zoom.

[00:25:17.740] - Sue Phillips
So then it's about, OK, that's take turns. Who's in this meeting? What if each of you bring into this meeting? Why are we here? Have we done the pre work? What was the pre work? And then that's OK. First discussion, right. Stop. We haven't heard from people on the line, so you will have to just be more disciplined, I think, about doing that. So that's that's what sets of behaviours that we need to start adopting that just in a more inclusive to anyone who's not in the office.

[00:25:46.510] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And just because it's such an important point you've made there. See, before we move on to the phone, made one of the other things that some company has been doing where they don't have the time to have people up on a big screen, they're actually nominating a remote buddy in each meeting. So nice. That's a nice idea. And they have to zoom on their laptop and they are then the voice for the Zoom attendees in the room.

[00:26:07.870] - Clare Josa
Oh, yeah. And if somebody has something to say, the laptop can be turned around and you see that person's face.

[00:26:13.510] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:14.980] - Clare Josa
That's the thing that's that's sort of working quite well. It's that internationalism is right. We know we've got this many people missing. And as you say, Sue is being very aware of what's going on. We haven't heard from the remote people for a little while. They might have something brilliant to say, but it takes an awful lot of guts to yell over call.

[00:26:31.300] - Sue Phillips
Yeah. So 'Zoom buddy' is a great idea because I can imagine doing that with your phone so I can imagine home I what's up with my Zoom buddy saying, hey, my turn and then I'll just say, oh Joe's got something to say and Joe will come in and say have they or his thing. And yes, exactly. Those kind of examples of new behaviours is is what exactly for them this does from the point of view of keeping people top of mind, because that's one of the big fears people have got is oh, but only the people who are in the office full time are going to get opportunities and promotions.

[00:27:00.130] - Clare Josa
Particularly if they do it the way they've just described it: Hey Joe's actually got something to say then everybody remembers. Oh Joe had a good idea. Exactly. And it just gets to express the idea themselves. Yeah. So it's this kind of thing is how can we turn this upside down. How can we. Forget how we used to do it. Make it so it does work because frankly, in most organisations, hybrid is here today and we open to new ways of working rather than trying to sausage machine the old ways.

[00:27:27.460] - Sue Phillips
Yes, having people myself. I love these ideas. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:27:32.390] - Sue Phillips
Yes. The and the other thing we were talking about was also the the planning of the of the, you know, the office party or the office get together and missing, going out on drinks, et cetera, even even before that. Again, the sort of decision is and this was so I showed you this earlier on. So it was a fortuitous that this magazine came out a couple of weeks ago. And so the centre here on get doing Highbridge.

[00:27:59.940] - Sue Phillips
What right. And what I hadn't occurred to me was what kind of hybrid we're looking for. So there's a time and a place hybrid. So the time hybrid is you can be inflexible or very flexible and the place hybrid is so I work nine to five is the inflexible or you can work whenever you want, which is the very flexible. Then the place hybrid is obviously you can work in the office nine to five. So before we were nine to five in the office and the flexibility at the flexibility, we can obviously work from anywhere.

[00:28:38.250] - Sue Phillips
So you think about that. Are we moving to any time anywhere or are we working to in the office flexible time or are we working to and anywhere but actually nine to five. So is getting your head around those two dimensions that I think is the first thing. And and I think many, many people who have families obviously want anytime, anywhere, because, you know, they love they have loved getting up at six, working from six to seven, 30, then doing the morning thing seven thirty till nine, and then then starting at six, nine thirty, carrying on till three and then stopping for a couple of hours and then going back later on.

[00:29:21.510] - Sue Phillips
So they have a seven hour day, but that seven hour days at different times. And I think there's no reason why that can't continue if if the team contracts for that and if the company contracts for that. And then that's so that's what you need to go to consult. So I think most big companies are now in a consultation process and they're looking at what are the different jobs, what are the different preferences. So this is putting the human needs as important, if not more important as the institutional needs, because at the end of the day, the institutional needs are just so we can keep everyone in order.

[00:30:00.040] - Sue Phillips
And we know where everyone is. We know that everyone's working hard. Well, we have kind of proven that over the last year. Everyone can work hard and everyone does kind of do their job. And if if they're not, then wondering why their employee flexibility and a lot of people have companies try to come back in with that control, which I did with Janet Hitchen last week. So those of you watching this, make sure you catch Janet's interview.

[00:30:21.930] - Sue Phillips
We talked about all these decisions being made from the control of some companies. They are. And the best employees are going to vote with their feet. Yeah, yeah. There will be some mass exodus to companies that offer a working style that that person wants.

[00:30:35.910] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think it's then about that about style. So so. Yeah. So then back, back to follow it will be within my team. Our team has decided that, you know, we will always be in on Tuesday and Wednesday or Monday and Thursday or whatever the days are. And so then everyone needs to sign up for that. And whether it's in teams or whether it's in, you know, sort of I mean, having the whole company doing that is probably going to be impossible.

[00:31:06.540] - Sue Phillips
So, again, you and then you might agree to swap it. So that day is the next week. It's another week. And so you might not make every single week. But then knowing that this is the day when everyone's going to be here. So you just you just have to I think you said earlier on who's going to be excluded from this decision. But then I said, how can we make sure that those people who might be excluded are included in the discussion about that decision?

[00:31:33.960] - Sue Phillips
And I think that's what some of the companies in here were saying. They've actually not just gone to the usual suspects when it comes to deciding on the go back to work policy. You know, we've talked to everyone. I've talked to junior people, senior people, mid-level people, people who out in the you know, out in the road a lot. People are in the office a lot. If you have kids, people who don't have kids, people that lives that don't involve children, but then will be in the office.

[00:31:58.500] - Sue Phillips
So, yeah.

[00:31:59.680] - Clare Josa
So yeah. And I think that's such an important point. So it's looking as an organisation who is in your team that's being consulted to make these decisions, because one of the things I've seen is family issues and definitely not with you guys episodes, but within other companies is. The people on the teams on the return to the office teams are often the younger single people in city flats with no garden who frankly have gone stir crazy for the last 15 months.

[00:32:25.720] - Clare Josa
Yeah. And say that their predisposition if we look at the reticular activating system, folks in the brain that filters off. How can we get everybody back in? And we need make sure that the people who've got Corera responsibilities, the people who, as you say, have a life outside work. Yeah. Is that they are in those teams, too, that we have that broad range. We're including people from every aspect of our organisation in those decisions.

[00:32:51.280] - Clare Josa
And it doesn't mean, as you've said before. So it doesn't mean we can meet everybody's needs. Yeah, but it means that we've consciously chosen which needs to meet and we've done our best because, you know, people some organisations I'm seeing people are being dictated to you will now do three or four days a week in the office, Will. Why. Yeah. Why wouldn't we talk about with Janet last week as well as why starting with how is the wrong way round.

[00:33:15.370] - Clare Josa
We need to be starting with Y, which is something you've used a number of times.

[00:33:19.090] - Sue Phillips
Yeah. What is it going to do for the organisation. What is it going to do for our employees, for our people. Then you start looking at how once you've understood where are we aiming for, as you said, are we aiming for the ultimate flexibility and time and space where we actually aiming for most people will be back in the office. What kind of organisation do we want to be? Yes, we support people on that journey.

[00:33:44.870] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, one of the one of the things one of the suggestions in the magazine as well, which I think is a good one, is thinking about how your policy is shaped by your values as a company. So if if if I don't know if empathy is high on your values, then why wouldn't you consult everybody? You know, you can't just want to be an empathetic organisation then say and you will be in three days a week. Yeah. So what are the company's values and how does that then reflect what you know, how you're going to approach this?

[00:34:16.030] - Sue Phillips
But I think, you know, teams and working in teams is is is really important because of this hybrid way of working, you know, the meaning of team and how teams need to work together, you know, obviously evolving as well. So I think we have been in a team who I've known probably within the same five years, a global team. We've always worked remotely. We've always had whether we were in the office or whatever, the one in Canada, one in Singapore, one in the UK and in France, etc.

[00:34:49.630] - Sue Phillips
So we've always worked remotely. But but we have missed each other very much. And so we only saw each of the really three or four times a year as a team of those those were the those were the high points. Those were the memorable moments. Those were the experiences, you know, that you felt. Oh, yes. We went up and we saw the Eiffel Tower from this restaurant. And you know that in my head, career highlights.

[00:35:12.850] - Sue Phillips
You know, I'm afraid I had that one career highlight on that workshop I told you about earlier on, but very few real experience. The highlights are going to be sitting in front of this thing compared with the face to face. You have to create a room for face to face and then and making those memories.

[00:35:31.630] - Clare Josa
Absolutely. And I know something you and I have talked about in the past is that you can't build a team on Zoome. And you've just described beautifully what we need to be doing instead. Is this consciously choosing to create experiences that bonders as a team? Yeah, and I'm potentially throwing away the rulebook on what they're allowed to be. It's got to be more than we just go out for lunch. Yeah, it's you know, with a travel budget, for example, it's probably available.

[00:35:55.810] - Clare Josa
What could we use that for to allow us to say, you know what? Yeah, I feel like I belong here now more as a result of today's experience.

[00:36:03.550] - Sue Phillips
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. It really, really important, particularly that the younger groups who haven't formed so you know, you can you create a team on steam with you know you can and they will. Of course they will because you know, you just get on and you make the best of it. And there are many, you know, great team experiences that we've had. But, you know, having having that face to face will create the bigger experience.

[00:36:31.900] - Clare Josa
I think to I think that is a perfect spot to leave it. It's been absolutely wonderful. I know I've had so much fun. I've absolutely loved hearing your wisdom and your insights today. We've had some great feedback by the chat, those of us who were alive. If you're on the replay, make sure you let us know what is your one action that you're going to take as a result of today. If you share via social media, the hashtag is making hybrid work.

[00:36:58.450] - Clare Josa
And if you know anybody else that would love to be watching these interviews and being inspired by these speakers, they can get their free ticket at MakingHybridWork.com. You're an absolute gift to this particular topic. I love how you're approaching this. I know that you'll be inspiring a lot of people with what you've been done. And thank you so much.

[00:37:21.540] - Sue Phillips
Thank you very much for asking. That is serving a delight and lovely to see everybody. And please do drop me a line if you have any any questions at all. I'll be very happy to to answer them. Thank you, Sue.

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